Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian
by k3vin on May.26, 2008, under Rants
- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
- You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
- Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
- You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend eternity in an infinite Hell of suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
- You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
- You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
Here are some that I thought were great from the comments:
- You believe that a book compiled from documents written decades, and in cases, centuries, after the deaths of the protagonists, which has been translated, re-translated, edited, censored, and had the language fudged to sound beautiful, then translated again, is still somehow the direct word of god. (Except the parts that you don’t actually want to live by, such as the command that you shall give anyone any of your possessions they ask for, and yea, give them more even than they ask.) - Mallory
- You believe that this document, taken from 2000 year old source materials, is grounds for your opposition of birth control, stem cell research, cell-hybridization, chemical abortion, cloning, etc. - Mallory
- You post comments on atheist and agnostic sites telling people they’re going to hell. - Mallory
- You rationally believe a religion based around a person who said “Love thine enemy” and who said one of the most important two things is “Love each other” and who supported a set of commandments which includes “thou shall not kill”. But simultaneously you support going to war, hating everyone who disagrees with you, and/or ruthlessly forcing your beliefs on others. - Lil Joshu
Edit: Number 4 didn’t get it’s own line for whatever reason. Thanks for pointing it out. ^_^
Edit: Added 4 new ones to the list from the comments.
Edit: Please note that I did not orginate this list. I simply wanted to respread it so more people could see it because it is indeed a great list. If anyone knows the original source of this list please let me know so I can give credit where credit is due. Possible true source: Scribd.com, EvilBible.com
119 comments for this entry:
July 17th, 2008 on 5:22 pm
I can’t read that font in that color
July 18th, 2008 on 12:12 pm
In 7, it wasn’t all the babies… just the first-born males. See? Merciful.
July 18th, 2008 on 12:17 pm
Smatt: How could i argue with that??
If god did exist, he would be the most merciful person ever.
I should really stop using sarcasm on the internet. It’s so hard to tell sarcasm from satire from a real opinion now-a-days. Which is sad.
July 18th, 2008 on 2:48 pm
I wonder what the 4th sign is, maybe it’s a secret.
July 18th, 2008 on 3:10 pm
Well said!
July 18th, 2008 on 5:12 pm
Bravo!
July 18th, 2008 on 6:36 pm
This should be broadcast on TV for at least one hour a day every day.
July 18th, 2008 on 9:48 pm
11. You belive that a book compiled from documents written decades, and in cases, centuries, after the deaths of the protagonists, which has been translated, re-translated, edited, censored, and had the language fudged to sound beautiful, then translated again, is still somehow the direct word of god. (Except the parts that you don’t actually want to live by, such as the command that you shall give anyone any of your possessions they ask for, and yea, give them more even than they ask.)
12. You belive that this document, taken from 2000 year old source materials, is grounds for your opposition of birth control, stem cell research, cell-hybridisation, chemical abortion, cloning, etc.
July 18th, 2008 on 11:32 pm
This needs to be shoved in the face of a few people I know who are set on the fact that I’m going to hell. It’s kind of funny.
July 18th, 2008 on 11:44 pm
Good list - but very hard to read. How about a bigger font and brighter letters?
July 19th, 2008 on 1:45 am
Re: #9: A Christian friend of mine recently brought up the concept of evolution, and pointedly asked if I honestly believed we’d descended from monkeys. I wish I’d had this at the tip of my tongue instead of trying to explain the actual concept to her and why it makes sense. It went way over her head.
July 19th, 2008 on 7:27 am
God is real. You need to study your Bible a little closer. If you have not accepted Christ as your savior. You will burn in hell. And also, you say we are not tolerant just because we do not agree with things that are contrary to the Good Book. You do not see us blowing up people and buildings to get our point across like those extermist. That is intolerant!
July 19th, 2008 on 8:06 am
You blog is really hard to read still, even after people keep telling you to change it. Perhaps god does exist and he is altering your blog colours to prevent your message getting out.
July 19th, 2008 on 8:54 am
::Sigh:: I”m embarrassed most of this is true…keep in mind though that not all Christians are literalist and or fundamentalists. Some Christians look beyond the words on the page and seek the deeper intention behind the words. The human hand is involved and therefore the book is not perfect, but as a liberal Christian, I do believe the Bible is the revelation of God to humankind…it’s had to pass through the hands of humans and thus has our flawed mark on it…but I believe in God who is beyond our human flaws and comprehension.
July 19th, 2008 on 11:48 am
13. You rationally believe a religion based around a person who said “Love thine enemy” and who said one of the most important two things is “Love eachother” and who supported a set of commandments which includes “thou shall not kill”. But simultaneously you support going to war, hating everyone who disagrees with you, and/or ruthlessly forcing your beliefs on others.
July 19th, 2008 on 6:06 pm
Kristy: “If you have not accepted Christ as your savior. You will burn in hell.”
If I do not believe in God, heaven and hell, how can I burn in hell? I do not even acknowledge its existence.
Anyways… Great list! I actually have these discussion with a friend of mine (she is very Christian) and we listen to each other and usually end with agreeing to disagree. Sometimes it is actually nice to get calm feedback from the “other side”
July 19th, 2008 on 8:23 pm
wish christains would see our side of life think everything else was false. my friend is a morman…i dont know how we get on long! and he just wont even talk about my religon..he hates it!
July 19th, 2008 on 8:25 pm
Felicity;
Not to be mean, but that’s like saying “If I do not acknowledge I am underwater, I will not drown.” It’d be awesome if that worked, but as it doesn’t..
You might want to try “If they’re not real, how can I..” instead?
July 19th, 2008 on 8:35 pm
Great list! To kristy: I am sure you have a good heart, but if you look at the Christan church’s history, there is a lot of atrocities, and killing in short, blood on the cross. Also keep in mind “the rapture thing” isn’t in the bible if was made up by some preacher in the early 1900’s, it just sorta caught on. I believe in treating people how I want to be treated, and if someone has love in their heart it doesn’t matter to me what they call it, be that Jesus, Buddha, or The Flying spaghetti monster. Love and tolerance are the important part.
July 19th, 2008 on 8:36 pm
Ætherfiend: To put it in perspective it’s kind of like saying “Oh no! You have to jump around in circles because the invisible butterflies that I have no other evidence for than ‘personal experience’ are going to eat you alive!!”
You’re alluding to an argument that theists often use called Pascal’s Wager. I’m a little tired of describing exactly how useless this argument is so I’ll just point you here: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager
July 19th, 2008 on 8:52 pm
I love Christians trying to win you over: “God is real, we are right, and if you don’t believe us, you’re burning in hell.” -Real nice religion you got there. Mighty friendly.
July 19th, 2008 on 11:06 pm
Ætherfiend, once again, you are basing everything on the assumption that you are right. Your drowning analogy sucks, BTW. We can scientifically demonstrate (though a very easy, don’t try this at home experiment) that you cannot breathe underwater without artificial aids. You cannot demonstrate the validity of your religion.
There is no scientific or logical basis for the existence of god or hell, so the assumption “They are not real” is more accurate than the preposition “If they are not real…”
As an intellectual exercise, see if you can think up any logical reasons why your god is the ‘correct’ one (assuming you believe in a god) rather than Zeus. (Reasons based on personal faith, circular logic, and safety in numbers don’t count.)
On another note - Score! My earlier comment has been added to the list. Here’s annother sign you’re a fundie -
14) You post comments on athiest and agnostic sites telling people they’re going to hell.
Kirsty, athiests do not fly planes into buildings. Faith without thought can be a terrible thing.
July 19th, 2008 on 11:30 pm
Faith without thought IS a terrible thing, life without faith is just as bad.
July 19th, 2008 on 11:38 pm
@Derrick: Faith used to be very useful for humans. If we had to think about every choice we come across then we’d never get to where we are today. However, I don’t see it as an important attribute for me. Accepting things without evidence can be a very, very bad thing and it doesn’t sound like something I would be proud of.
Religion seems like the world’s most popular placebo.
July 20th, 2008 on 12:00 am
Derrick, I have faith. I have faith in people, in science, in the world continuing in accordance with it’s natural laws, and in much else.
My faith is justifiable. It’s based on evidence, and is adjusted if warrented by changes in circumstances. I trust my friend to be honest; he lies to me, and I may trust him less. I trust the sun will rise each morning, due to the rotation of the earth on it’s axis. I spend the winter in alaska, and don’t expect much sun.
Evidence based faith allows us to make reasonable assumptions, and make decisions without perfectly complete data. Faith without any evidence is unjustifiable, and sets you up to make cognitive errors (eg, the bible said so, therefore it must be true). This can lead to extremely poor decision making.
For example: You have faith in god. The bible says the heavens revolve around the earth. The bible said so, therefore it must be true. Torture Galileo until he recants his theory that the earth orbits the sun.
There is a quote from Steven Weinberg about relion that sums up the danger of faith: “With or without it[religion], you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”
July 20th, 2008 on 12:04 am
K3vin, all I can say to you is that there are many things that we still don’t know and have to accept without lots or any evidence (please don’t confuse this with any similar sounding “Christian” rhetoric) like why there aren’t clear evidences of intermediate stages of evolutionary development. We simply cannot know these things as well as we can know why baking soda and vinegar react (this is by no means representative…LOL it’s just the first super provable scientific example that came to mind) We all have some measure of faith whether we want to admit it or not. Mine helps to cause me to be a better person than I would be without faith.
The goal for me as a Christian is to define exactly what it is that makes my lifestyle worthwhile and better than not living it. It’s not about heaven or hell, or fire insurance…in fact…I’d burn in hell for all eternity if I were a better person because I was a Christian. I am that devoted to the core philosophies of the person of Jesus Christ: Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself…and the resulting actions of that. It’s not about taking the Bible literally and formulating a set of “if x then y” statements. It’s understanding that throughout history, God has revealed Godself to humankind and the Bible is a record, albeit influenced by human error and bias, of that revelation.
Remember…many people call themselves Christians…few of them know what that actually means…and fewer still actually do it. That’s because it’s difficult and actually requires some intelligence to properly interpret scripture to be meaningful to a culture saturated with intelligence.
I’m willing to continue this conversation as long as it stays healthy.
July 20th, 2008 on 5:53 am
What I don’t understand about you atheists is why are you bothered that people are gullible enough to be sucker’d by the bible? Also this there is no God statement you’s keep making, when to be fair you’s have absolutely no idea one way or the other?
July 20th, 2008 on 6:59 am
Derrick, I do have to admit that there are some things that everyone must take on faith. I have to take on faith that when I have a sober mind the things that I see, touch, taste, smell and hear and actual representations of reality. If I were to “wake up” suddenly in a completely different reality from what I’ve experienced here then I would suddenly realize that I knew nothing about the world around me and, in fact, I couldn’t trust the senses I had in the ‘other’ world either.
You made a remark toward evolution that I disagree with. There is plentiful evidence for intermediate stages in evolutionary development and slowly and slowly we’re finding more and more ‘links’ to different species. Do you think we haven’t found several specimen for whale’s transition to water? Do you think we haven’t found evidence of the transition from Aves to reptilian species? I don’t understand where you think the evidence is lacking. Either way, I do not call it faith when subscribing to the theory of evolution because based on real evidence it would be even more unbelievable and unjustified than not believing evolution. Until there is a better theory to explain the mountain of evidence we have then I am forced to conclude that it is currently the most likely explanation for the origin of species.
This is a form of Occam’s razor and it’s consistently a good rule of thumb to live by. If you don’t know what that is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor
July 20th, 2008 on 11:29 am
For a religion whose main premise in the 21st century is “love”, it is interesting to note that all original popes were generals, that they routinely conquered territory in order to get money to pay for the Sistine Chapel, etc., and that their favorite song is still “Onward Christian Soldiers”
July 20th, 2008 on 1:36 pm
K3vin…what I was getting at is that humans are incapable of knowing absolutely everything. I am also a creationist supporter of evolution. There is evidence for both in my opinion and I seek a synthesis of the two. What I was getting at was that we do not have the proverbial points 1 through 10 on the evolutionary timeline. I argue that just as there are holes in evolutionary timeline, there are holes in scripture. Nothing historic that is interpreted by modern human minds is exactly what was intended or represented during it’s original time. I am willing to accept evolution, but not without some creative force behind it. I’m also not a deist, I believe in providence.
Basically, I believe that science is wonderful and fascinating. I also believe that science is incapable of understanding things that are beyond the natural world. Because of the incapacity of science to understand that which is supernatural, some have regarded the supernatural as non-existent. In my opinion, that is like asking a toddler to tell you about quantum physics, it is simply incapable of doing so.
July 20th, 2008 on 4:33 pm
You Heathenz are all the same. You use cynicism and sarcasm combined with dinner table discourse on evolution to generalize a skeptical viewpoint on the christianity. Hell is real. get used to it. your all going there if you dont turn away from your sin.
July 20th, 2008 on 5:41 pm
@joe clease: My atheism isn’t based on evolution. It’s based on the fact that no religion I’ve come across has any evidence that leads me to believe that their spiritual claims are correct. If you’d just provide evidence then it would help us all.
July 20th, 2008 on 6:27 pm
Derrick, there have been no evidence that evolution requires a creative force. In fact, evolution seems to do just as well without such a force. There have been several computer models which seem to create more complexity than there was before.
Your next point just baffles me. There is nothing that leads me to believe that there is anything supernatural. Other than that, I have no other issues with your argument. However, if you were to argue that a supernatural force can cause effects in the natural world then it definitely is something that science can test. Can prayer work to help people? Let’s test it. The research done in this area all points to no effect at all. There are some who would say that prayer cannot be tested scientifically. I say to them to stop pretending like does have a statistical value.
Sorry I went off about prayer there. My main point is that anything science tests, by definition, must exist in the natural world. If a ’supernatural’ claim was proposed that could be verifiable and replicated then congratulations! It’s not supernatural. It’s real.
I think this could all fall back to my first statement: here is nothing that leads me to believe that there is anything supernatural.
July 20th, 2008 on 7:03 pm
@Bracey
Why are we bothered about people believing in the bible?
We’re not, per se. It’s what they do about it… such as, start religious wars, restrict the freedoms of others (abortion, gay rights, gay adoption, freedom of speech - Ireland still has blasphemy laws etc.) damage schools by teaching fairy-tails as science; Hold up stem-cell research that could lead to cures for terminal disease. Religion is the enemy of progress, both scientific and social.
About your assertion that “we have absolutely no idea one way or the other [whether god exists]“. ‘God’ is something people have made up. There is no evidence to support ‘god’ being anything more than something people have made up. Saying there is no god is like saying there is no Santa Claus, no fairies, no easter bunny, no giant blue flying elephants that hand out popsicles. They’re all things people made up. Sure, we can’t *disprove* their existance. That doesn’t mean we have ‘absolutely no idea one way or the other’ it means that as there is no evidence of existence, we can conclude beyond reasonable doubt they don’t exist. If we turn out to be wrong, there will be coal in our stockings, we’ll go to hell, and the blue elephants won’t be giving us any popsicles.
And don’t bring up Pascal’s wager. Just go here http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager and save me repeating the arguements.
July 21st, 2008 on 12:38 am
what is up with this animosity between Christians and Atheists? All in all were are people, and should be thought of as the same. Get out of your grudge and realize, no person is better than the next. Unless they went to Harvard, then they are better
July 21st, 2008 on 12:41 am
sorry my comment doesn’t make sense, I am drunk. I am for open thought, but not a closed mind
July 21st, 2008 on 12:43 am
my god woud kik ur ass 4 such blefeeeema
praze tor (cuz he haz a big ass hammer)
July 21st, 2008 on 7:23 am
the only true god is the FSM
http://www.venganza.org/
July 21st, 2008 on 7:23 am
@ Mallory then your belief is that everything came from absolutely nothing? Tell me what triggered evolution? What started the big bang? In my blunt opinion your view takes just as much summizing as the bible bashers. I was never christened/baptised whatever you say, and my 5 year old son knows to take what he is told in school with a pinch of salt.
But I still wouldn’t be so arrogant as to pretend I know for certain how we all came about and how the universe started ect. Its a never ending arguement…. Yes I agree made stupid by the bible followers, but still its catch 22.
July 21st, 2008 on 9:35 am
@Bracey: I do not think science has the answers to everything. If we did then science wouldn’t exist because… we’d know everything. To be an atheist does not mean you have to know everything that is supposedly explained by the concept of god. For those problems an atheist must say “I don’t know how this happened” and I am perfectly fine with that. The problem is that people make claims that they know how x happened. God did it. Yet, most cannot define exactly what god is and they make hand waves at being unexplainable. If it is unexplainable then you cannot explain simply put him in whatever question we don’t know the answer too. I’m sorry but plugging your imaginary friend into questions we don’t know about just doesn’t fly to me.
The problem with saying that it is a never ending argument is that some people are not qualified at all to argue. It’s like walking in class not know arithmetic and arguing that 2+2=4 is an incorrect statement. To be able to argue your point you have to teach the other person all of the science they failed to learn when they were in school.
Also, we do have a theory which tries to explain the origin of life called abiogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis). I am in no way saying that this IS the way life arose but it is a theory which can be tested. And we did. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment) So this has increased the likelihood of this being somewhat true to me. In fact, there’s no better explanation that I see…
July 21st, 2008 on 9:43 am
@Bracey - I don’t know what started things. We don’t have all the answers. That’s what science is about; you ask questions, and you search for evidence to build theories to explain what happened and how. Athiests aren’t claiming to know everything, or to have all the answers - I certainly don’t, and I don’t even have the education to understand all the research.
No-one knows for certain where the universe came from. There is much debating to be done - but it should be between scientific theories. The ‘god did it’ response is not a useful contribution to the debate.
Science may never come to a ‘certain’ answer, although there will someday be better theories and more evidence than we currently have.
Religion can give a certain answer to ‘Where did the universe come from?’ Answer: ‘God created it.’ But where did god come from?
Not having an answer is better than having a wrong answer and stopping looking.
July 21st, 2008 on 3:41 pm
Thank You!
July 21st, 2008 on 4:57 pm
I am happy that people believe in a god that I do not(I am an atheist). If these people believe they need faith to make them a better person then go for it. I do not need faith or any god/goddess to do what I know to be right. I do get sick of Christains blaming my type for the problems that they themselves have created(athiests make up less then 1% of criminal populations)
July 22nd, 2008 on 4:49 am
See I like you two, in fact you have changed my perception a little on the everyday atheist. I don’t even need to explain that statement, I’m sure the pair of you have seen the multitudes of atheist websites on stumbleupon ect ect.
And yeah I fully agree that there is so many question’s unanswered, it’s just that I have a very open mind, and in my opinion the possibility of a God or whatever he/she/it whatever maybe is possible, and if that was the case, I highly doubt science is going to show us this.
I too think it’s a bit tedious the way people preach on about this God, and openly laugh when I see sports stars thanking God for “the goal he just scored” ect …. yeah cause everyone knows God is a Man Utd fan.
@ Glenn why are you glad? Do you feel a better person?
July 22nd, 2008 on 7:36 am
@ K3vin
There is also nothing to suggest that creation requires evolution…I’m a bastard believer in both. I’m a firm believer that the supernatural can affect the natural. How this happens varies. It could be that the supernatural causes the natural to flow according to the will of the supernatural.
As for prayer being scientifically testable, it’s not for several reasons. Firstly, Christian prayer is not magic. One cannot simply pray for something and it happens simply because of prayer. Imagine the catastrophe that would bring. Secondly, scripture speaks of unanswered prayers as “asking with wrong intentions.” Using prayer to “prove God” isn’t of any real benefit to anyone other than proving someone wrong. Thirdly, I would like to read about studies involving prayer and how they were conducted. I’m a bit cynical of the objectivity.
Ultimately, if my faith causes me to stay away from unhealthy habits like smoking, excessive drinking and promiscuous sex and leads me towards healthy behaviors such as helping others, persevering through adversity, and being a kind, gentle, intelligent person…I’d dare anyone to mock me. I’m far from perfect…but all I know is that I went from being an alcoholic to being clean and sober without therapy, was able to cope and heal from a rape when I was younger, and I’ve become a better person because of the influence of God in my life. You don’t know until you experience, and you don’t experience until you’re open.
July 22nd, 2008 on 8:10 am
For those of you who are sarcastic enough, not a single belief in the bible has been significantly proven. By belief, I refer to supernatural beliefs.
“Ultimately, if my faith causes me to stay away from unhealthy habits like smoking, excessive drinking and promiscuous sex and leads me towards healthy behaviors such as helping others, persevering through adversity, and being a kind, gentle, intelligent person…I’d dare anyone to mock me. I’m far from perfect…but all I know is that I went from being an alcoholic to being clean and sober without therapy, was able to cope and heal from a rape when I was younger, and I’ve become a better person because of the influence of God in my life. You don’t know until you experience, and you don’t experience until you’re open.”
–> I’ve seen that in the essentials of Zen, Taoism, and Buddhism. Frankly, the way they execute their actions pretty much owns what any branch of Christianity has.
“As for prayer being scientifically testable, it’s not for several reasons. Firstly, Christian prayer is not magic. One cannot simply pray for something and it happens simply because of prayer. Imagine the catastrophe that would bring. Secondly, scripture speaks of unanswered prayers as “asking with wrong intentions.” Using prayer to “prove God” isn’t of any real benefit to anyone other than proving someone wrong. Thirdly, I would like to read about studies involving prayer and how they were conducted. I’m a bit cynical of the objectivity.”
—> I believe this is called ’setting your mind to do things’. You can do that on your own without a god. “I must have the strength to fight the evils of this world, etc. etc.”
I believe that there is a supreme being. Religion just screws thing up with additional traditons. We all know evil exists, because innocents can suffer from the wrongdoings of others. Now if the christian God remains true, then it must be true that he is good. Would a good being let innocents suffer? So there really is something wrong with the relgiuous practices and beliefs.
July 22nd, 2008 on 9:07 am
Derek Grow up.
There is a clear reason for religion. (purpose)
The goal for you as a Christian is to do as you are told. The delusional thinking you are immersed in makes that easier. The people who create religions work hard to craft them into power machines. Your piffling pedantic musing about detail is irrelevant.
The purpose of religion is power. Indeed your Christianity is a classic example. Constantine took Paul’s careful assemblage to use as he saw fit. Its subsequent history is simply a litany of manipulation with the intent of increasing its effect. You can still see it happening in all religions today.
Grow up all of you before your consciences notice the blood and suffering that follows faith.
July 22nd, 2008 on 10:05 am
I think a more correct term for the supposed ‘faith’ that atheists have would be reasonable expectation.
I have a reasonable expectation that the sun will rise tomorrow, just like it has any other day. It may not, but this is highly unlikely.
to quote some guy:
‘calling Atheism a faith is like calling bald a hair color’
July 22nd, 2008 on 1:13 pm
@ Owned
But the key factor for me is that it wasn’t Zen, Taoism, Bhuddism, or anything besides Christianity that did it for me.
Christianity in execution has failed historically because of the corruption of human beings. There are people like myself who are trying to change that.
Christian theology states in regards to the problem of evil (if god is all powerful, all knowing, and good…then why do bad things happen) that all evil is traced to the free will of finite beings. This includes finite supernatural forces of good and evil. God created finite beings with free will and does not interfere with the free will of those beings. According to Christian theology, humans were created in the image of God, in perfect relationship with God, the breaking of partnership with God and each other in the first act of disobedience brought evil into the world. People can choose to do good or evil and God will not interfere with that choice, otherwise we do not have choices in life…which I am vehemently against. So…if evil happens, it’s not because God caused it, and God is not evil for not stopping it, humans are flawed because of their own free will.
Christian theology goes further to say that God does not allow innocents to suffer alone. God suffers with those who suffer at the hand of evil. The death of Jesus is the primary demonstration of this suffering. Scripture also affirms that those who suffer at the hands of evil will be liberated from their suffering into victory just as Christ was raised from death.
Please note: It is important that I distinguish myself from the stereotype of Christians that most have here. There ARE Christians who aren’t Bible thumping fire and brimstone proselytizers, and I am one of them. I value these conversations because I critically analyze my faith and the things that I believe and I hope that at some point, I am able to provide new insight into the mind of a Christian. I respond in respect and hope that everyone will continue to do the same.
July 22nd, 2008 on 5:38 pm
@ dw
The patriarchal powers that have dominated the church for centuries have indeed used the church for social control and many atrocities have been committed in the name of the church and of God. Those atrocities and controls are far from the message of liberation portrayed in the prophetic literature of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the person and teachings of Jesus Christ and therefore have no bearing on the core teachings of Christianity.
God upholds the autonomy of humans by not interfering with their free will. By not intervening, God expects that Christians exercise their own moral agency as they are transformed to be more like God. In other words, doing right because you’ve been transformed and given a new nature disposed to do right instead of just doing what you’re told is right.
If you REALLY want to know…I’m from a very small liberal minority in the church that advocates such theology. I’m actually doing the exact opposite of what I’m being told to do. I’m challenging the powers that be in the church that have made it into the sham that it is today.
I have no clue where you’d get the idea that I’m immature in any way. I’m engaging in dialog with people who believe differently than I do. I’m being enlightened to the thought processes of others while maintaining my convictions and beliefs without forcing them on anyone and not belittling those who believe differently than I do. That’s more maturity than I can grant to some. I am, in all ways, respectful of your beliefs. Please be respectful of mine.
July 22nd, 2008 on 6:42 pm
@Derrick: I still don’t understand why an all powerful god couldn’t prevent evil. Saying that free will is what allows evil to exist then why do we attribute anything good to this god? Isn’t it against our free will for this god to do good things for us?
Can an all powerful god create a rock so heavy he couldn’t move?
That is, I think, your argument.
You went on to say that “humans are flawed because of their own free will” and implied is that humans, in turn, cause the evil in the world to exist. To me, this is a very pessimistic view of mankind… however that doesn’t hold any weight for my argument. I would say that there are many people who are born into situations where they’re completely innocent. Diseases, Cancer, Viruses, Genetic diseases and more are forced upon people who have done nothing to deserve it. I can see a refutation to this argument being that we’re all living guilty because our ancestors ate an apple because a talking snake tempted them to. Really? REALLY??
I hate arguing in the Christian paradigm because, to me, it seems like arguing that not all the kings horses and all the kings men came to help put humpty dumpty back together again.
I hope this doesn’t offend you not because I am worried about offending people but because someone I’m arguing against ideas, not you.
Also, I think the whole idea of ‘being offended’ is completely fabricated bull to make others feel guilty for speaking freely. It’s annoying and I reject the whole idea.
I feel like I’m completely off the subject so I’ll stop right there…
July 22nd, 2008 on 7:17 pm
A K3vin
It is not that God *cannot* prevent evil, it is that God *does not* prevent evil because of the nature in which humans were created. If God prevented all bad and only permitted good, we would not be able to act of our own free will. We would have no choices in life and essentially life would have no inherent purpose. We would be clocks ticking until we stop. By granting humans free will, we are able to forge meaning out of our lives. Unfortunately, there are those who forge evil from their lives.
If we do not desire God to do good in our lives, or acknowledge God, then we are left to our own devices.
There are people who have the misfortune of being born with diseases, viruses, etc. Unfortunately there is no clear and definite answer for their existence other than as the result of the fall of humankind. There are people who’ve studied this for years and have yet to come to a decent conclusion. The only answer that has sufficed, if not fully, is the answer given to Job for his suffering. God basically says that some things are beyond human comprehension and that trusting God is the important thing in those situations. As I said before, God does not sit back and watch those who suffer innocent of wrongdoing, Godself in the form of a human in Jesus Christ suffered and died as an innocent as well. God suffers with those who suffer and promises liberation and victory at the end of their struggle.
No offense taken, in fact, you are the first person I’ve talked about these topics with that responded with respect and tact. I appreciate that. We may not see eye to eye, but we can at least be respectful.
I always find it funny when atheists/agnostics complain about some Christians being arrogant or rude/hostile when they are just as arrogant, rude and hostile back. It’s so counterproductive to a solution.
July 22nd, 2008 on 7:41 pm
@Derrick: I probably didn’t make this point clear enough but the argument you present contains an issue that I do not think you would agree with… because it requires that you would be a deist.
You argued that god cannot prevent all evil because of the free will that god created us with. I made the argument that god cannot give good things because the free will that god created us with.
Do you now see the issue that Christians have at this point? Following this argument, every claim that is made in the bible in which god influences anyone would prohibit our free will and thus wasn’t from god. So god couldn’t have appeared and spoke from the burning bush and gave the ten commandments, couldn’t have told Noah about the impending flood, couldn’t have sent his son, born of a virgin, to the earth, etc.
I’m very interested as to what your response to this is…
My conversation with you is different than most theists as well. Most don’t seem to care what I have to say against their beliefs, which is a little saddening to me.
July 22nd, 2008 on 7:50 pm
Derrick,
there are mysteries to life. But to answer them with ‘god’ leads to an ideas dead end.
July 22nd, 2008 on 8:06 pm
@ K3vin
Thanks for clarifying…you bring up an excellent point. The difference in my argument about free will is not that God cannot intervene (God can intervene because God is all powerful), but that God chooses not to intervene (out of a policy of upholding human autonomy). When God wants something done, God reveals God’s will to humans. Because God is good, God’s will is good. Humans then have the choice to follow and carry out God’s will, or to reject it and thereby perform an act of evil (ie sin) I am somewhere between a deist and a fundamentalist because while I don’t believe that God is detached from human activity, I also don’t believe that God is a micro-manager moving all the little chess pieces in our lives.
In every example you have of God doing something good with humans involved, the human had a choice to go through with it or not. Sometimes it seems a little less optional, such as Mary’s pregnancy in Luke, but the humans consented to God’s will.
The practical implication today is that Christians are to be conformed to the image of Christ (which is the benchmark since Jesus was fully God and fully human–uhh Chalcedonian Compromise I think? {my church history is a little fuzzy}) and in being conformed to the image of Christ, we are endowed with a new nature that is disposed to do good like feed the poor, care for orphans, widows and foreigners, exhibit love, joy, peace, patience ,kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, and self control. I also come from a school of theology called liberation theology which says that if a passage of scripture is not uplifting and liberating to all humans, its translation, interpretation, or authorship must be called into question. I do not believe in biblical infallibility because of the involvement of humans in the recording, copying, and translating of scripture.
July 22nd, 2008 on 8:07 pm
[...] Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian [...]
July 22nd, 2008 on 8:33 pm
@Derrick: Okay, now I see where you fall in lines with literalism. It’s actually a relief that you’re not a literalist in regard to the bible but it does make it a little harder to argue for obvious reasons (one of which is that I agree).
In regards to free will I have to disagree that god does not interfere with free will. Even though god does give each human a choice in every situation in the bible I have to argue that god doing ANYTHING will limit the choices of the humans involved. If I said you can play with the blue or the red ball would you say that you had free will even though you were not able to choose green or any other color for that matter?
I’ll considerate on the Noah example. Did he have a choice to be contacted by god? Did he have a choice that there was a giant flood for 50 days? My answer to both is no.
July 22nd, 2008 on 8:35 pm
“If we do not desire God to do good in our lives, or acknowledge God, then we are left to our own devices.”
–> consider the tribal people living in the remotest places of the world who once suffered the rash treatments of colonialists (Philippines, etc.). for one, Philippines once had a concept of a supreme being very similar to the christian god, named ‘bathala’. Accounts of early filipinos requesting that bathala protect them from the colonialists.
Philippines suffered 300 years under the Spanish colonialists. After spaniards established christianity there, filipinos embraced it. ‘Bathala’ became ‘Jesus’. Now how could you say that if you do not wish god to do you good, you are left with your own devices?
Philippines is just one example. Many other countries/tribes experienced being **’left with their own devices’** even with praying to god.
or maybe you’ll say that ‘they weren’t having enough faith’, that while being raped, slaved, and mocked, they doubted jeeesus’ help.
“The only answer that has sufficed, if not fully, is the answer given to Job for his suffering. God basically says that some things are beyond human comprehension and that trusting God is the important thing in those situations.”
—> while being raped, slaved, and mocked, the african-americans who suffered early american slavery must always remember that God could just be testing their faith? That in exchange for those, God has given them faith in him and to themselves, strength in willpower, and to be a ‘better person’?
It takes but one dream to change a person. It doesn’t have to be centuries of slavery just to teach an entire ethnic group some values. I could wake up in one dream feeling love for my people, without having to actually suffer.
Play god for one day. Rape your daughter so she may know the folly of being too rash with boys. Enslave your housemaid so he/she may know the value of having a bigger dream than just being a housemaid. Torture the prisoners so they may never again commit crimes.
Then again, some theists might consider saying that “perhaps God has a better reason that could outweigh the sufferings these people experienced, something bigger and better than what I stated”
July 22nd, 2008 on 9:38 pm
No faith in god?
July 22nd, 2008 on 9:45 pm
@ K3vin
I think with the red vs. blue ball (slight smirk) scenario, the truth of the matter is that regardless of free will, the earth and everything in it is finite. God is infinite. Out of the finite choices humans have in any given situation, God’s will, its antithesis, and many other in-betweens can be found.
Concerning the Noah scenario…I’ve honestly never thought about it like that. The answer to both questions is definitely no. I ponder the weight these concepts carry when they apply to God’s interaction with humankind. It would appear that as a general rule, God does not interfere with the free will of humans, but in certain areas God does. Ultimately (at least for right now) I think this scenario falls back on God’s reply to Job “Where were you when I hung the heavens?” I don’t know…and I’m willing to admit it. I’m also not willing to jump ship on the entirety of my faith because of a question like this.
Thank you for a thought provoking moment.
@ Owned
You’ve taken my comments and thrown them grossly out of proportion. The colonialists were wrong for what they did and were not acting in any true Biblical capacity. Ultimately from a Christian point of view, bathala is a false god and had no capacity to answer prayer anyway. The tribal peoples who had/have not been introduced to the gospel are not accountable for sin. Christians believe that sin is the conscious act of doing wrong.
African Americans actually latched on to the theology stemming from Exodus and the liberation of Israel from Egypt. They recognize a God who desires they be delivered from the hands of those who oppress them (read up on black and latin american liberation theology…it’s fascinating).
Owned, it seems you have not grasped the concepts I’ve presented and just cherry pick quotes from my posts and unroll insults from a stockpile of standard anti-Christian arguments. I’m a little miffed because you expect me to instantly reject my faith because your wisdom has opened my eyes and yet you seem to refuse to even process a word I’ve said. I feel disrespected and will not reply to another disrespectful post. K3vin and I have had a very good discussion because we’ve had mutual respect for each other’s beliefs.
July 22nd, 2008 on 9:55 pm
You have no problem condemning homosexuals while simultaneously soliciting gay sex in an airport bathroom
July 22nd, 2008 on 10:13 pm
@Derrick
I’ve personally had a wonderful experience with Christianity in general. I used to be a Methodist. I attended church events, bible reading, lock ins, choir, and I was even part of some of the congregations. It was a great social gathering for me. However, I had little questions that went unanswered about the underlining theology. The number of these questions grew and grew and everyone I asked had no idea or made some lame excuse, or admitted that they didn’t believe that part of the bible. After a little while I decided that I had no justification to believe in Christianity… I considered myself a deist. Yet again, I wondered what justification I had to believe that a god existed. Soon enough I considered myself a agnostic and very soon after an atheist.
Just a note: The way I define agnosticism and atheism leads to those terms not being mutually exclusive and I consider myself both.
Anyhow, I’m always interested in conversation with others because someone might know something I don’t. However, I have yet to see ample evidence for me to accept a religious belief and leave the ‘null hypothesis’ in regard to existence of a god.
I hope this conversation was helpful to you in some way. I’m sure I’ve learned a lot. It didn’t seem like you were trying to preach to me and it turned into a nice and long intellectual conversation. Feel free to ask my opinion on things any time. I’m sure we could go on and on about just about anything.
/hat-tip
@lilnega: I’m not sure that is common with fundamentalists… I tend to think that they truly and honestly believe what they say they believe. I know that there have been some high priority cases like this but there’s nothing to lead me to believe that this is common with fundamentalist Christianity..
July 22nd, 2008 on 10:22 pm
K3vin…do you feel that committal to inerrancy of scripture is a requirement for the validity of Christianity?
July 22nd, 2008 on 10:38 pm
@Derrick: Sorta. Mostly, the obvious errors that I saw lead to other questions that involve justifications to my beliefs (or lack there of). Most of my faith was based on the bible because I did not have any ‘personal experience’ that I could not explain with anything but spiritual powers but I think the only reason that I stayed Christian passed the age of 14 was the complete and utter fear of death. I’m still a little apprehensive but I can simply reassure myself that I spent a long time not being alive before I was born. Death sucks. But accepting a solution that has no basis in reality is no solution at all.
Christianity without a sacred book is just a big club with a load of rules from a book that the majority of the members half agree with. If that’s what you mean by Christianity… then sure. I’m in. Hah. I’m sure I can find SOME things in the bible that I ethically agree with but there are some stories with horrible messages. All of this has nothing to do with the actual belief in god or any other spiritual claims made by Christians. Again, Christianity without spirituality is a big club with a very old book.
It seems like your question implies that there’s something else that validates Christianity for you. What would that be?
July 23rd, 2008 on 1:37 am
ooh the comment thread lasted THIS long?
July 23rd, 2008 on 3:21 am
Derek
A report on UK radio yesterday described how 24 albinos had been murdered in the last two years in Tanzania (men, women, babies and older children) because the local witchdoctors have declared that body parts of albinos can bring you wealth. The local population believe what they have been told by others and take it on faith. Now they pay gangs to murder and hack up albinos for the body parts.
Every thing you believe about religion you believe simply because someone else told you to. You where probably immersed in religion from birth as I was in school and boy scouts. Even though both my parents where atheist. Turn your insight just a little further and you will see that the problems you are having with religion (you are thinking hard about it) stem from two places, the fundamental all encompassing false nature of religion (its just plain rubbish) and small gaps in your scientific knowledge. We know infinitely more about the nature of the universe through science than is in any of religions texts. If you are sticking on certain question you just need to reed and experiment more. 99 percent of modern science fits nicely into a taxonomy of fact that also happens (in complete and stark contrast to religious teaching) to fits with the observable evidence. Apologies for the insult of accusing you of childishness but to me all superstitious people have simply not progressed far and also widely enough through there intellectual development.
The problem with this is that the world desperately needs some rational thinking applied to it’s huge problems and the world’s religions are buggering this up by empowering the worst kind of manipulative, self important, deluded psychopaths.
Bush, Rumsfeld, Chaney, the pope, The Saudi royal family, and a thousand mullahs they sponsor. The list is literally endless.
Bush depends on Christianity for power just as much as the pope does. The Saudi use Wahabiism to keep the population in control with all the insidious bigotry and suffering for women that involves. You are part of this whether you know it or not. (maximum respect to you though Derek you are a gentleman) Simply by perpetuating fear uncertainty and doubt you legitimize all religions and make domination just that little bit more possible.
Forget the details they are simply distracting.
They are self perpetuating endless arguments that are forced at every turn to ignore the elephant in the room (they are based on rubbish) and conjure ever more inventive ways of avoiding the observable truth.
There are no gods, never have been and never will be. Nothing supernatural has ever happened. ( James Randy will give you a million dollars if you can show that it has) and
People make stuff up to influence others.
No more confusion required.
July 23rd, 2008 on 6:35 am
@Derrick
“I would like to read about studies involving prayer and how they were conducted. I’m a bit cynical of the objectivity.”
google +Harvard +Prayer
July 23rd, 2008 on 7:27 am
@ K3vin
My experience of Christianity has been off the beaten path for sure. I grew up in a pentecostal church, both my parents were Christians, my grandparents were, etc. At around 10 years old I got involved with the Children’s Ministry at my church and felt a grand sense of belonging and acceptance. I wanted to be a professional puppeteer on Sesame Street or the like and Children’s Ministry used puppets. Over the long course of my teenage years I became an alcoholic, was raped, and experienced a lot of things that were scarring. I was still in church, smiling every Sunday, but I was absolutely dieing. I had a lot of questions, mainly from discussions like the ones we’ve had here, that could not be answered. I eventually ended up at a Christian Liberal Arts School studying Theatre and Children’s Ministry. It was at that school that I studied theology in depth. The professors there weren’t afraid of my questions like the people at church were. They actually encouraged me to think about my faith. Lots of my questions were getting better answers than “well you just have to trust in the Lord” When I turned 21, I returned to my alcoholism. My return also signaled a complete detachment from my faith. I was sick of the corruption in the church and the misuse of religion. I didn’t want to be a part of it. I was a non-believer sitting through classes on ministry going “f this!” Through the help of God, my Children’s Ministry advisor, my fiance, and my friends I was able to clean up again. After I was sober, I began to think about faith again. I found parts that were completely irredeemable. I found that the reason they were irredeemable is because someone had corrupted them down the line. I also found things like Liberation Theology as the crux of my new Christian beliefs. If scripture does not liberate, it’s been corrupted and should be disregarded for those passages that do. I think that Christianity was never meant to be in the state it’s in today. I am a reformer trying to restore Christianity to the teachings of Jesus. Love God, Love your Neighbor, Love your Enemy, Set the captive free.
Liberation is what validates Christianity for me. I am free to think, I am free from my addictions.
July 23rd, 2008 on 7:41 am
@dw
The ‘Religion for power thing’ only explains the powerful minority. Why are other people religious?
Personally I’ve always thought there were four broad ‘types’ of religious believers, of whatever denomination. (This is just based on my personal experience, other people might disagree).
Type 1: People who were immersed in religion, and have never (for whatever reason) examined their assumptions an beliefs. It’s just true, because it’s always been true.
Type 2: People who are/have become religious through study and introspection. (Often former type 1’s) These are the ones who are most likely to admit to doubt as to the existance of god, and least likely to belive that the bible is the literal word of god. In my experience, this type is the least likely to be fundamentalist.
Type 3: People who convert and use religion as a coping strategy. Sometimes due to a crisis in their lives, they rely on the suport of their religion, and sometimes on ‘the rules’ to tell them how to live. Often recovering alcoholics, addicts, or prisoners.
Type 4: ‘Personal revelation’. This can overlap with type 3. These are the ones who have ‘personally experienced’ god, or the holy spirit reaching out and touching them, and it’s made them a better person/reaffirmed their faith/bought them to god, etc. Together with type 3, most likely to evangelise. Sometimes convert to type 2.
I went through a very brief period of being intensely christian at age 14 after attending a baptist revival where I had an experience which I would describe as entering a transandental trance-like state. It lasted all of six weeks, until I realised that the religion was still the one I had already rejected, I still didn’t believe in god, and I could reliably put myself into the same sort of auto-hypnotic state by chanting a mantra and rocking. But I can certainly see why people can honestly feel that they have had a personal revelation, even though I don’t believe it’s supernatural in origin.
I can respect the beliefs of the type 2’s, even though I don’t share them… because they have actually thought things through, and tend to have better arguements than ‘god said so’.
July 23rd, 2008 on 7:41 am
@ dw
Your first example…apples and oranges. Christians are killed every day too. Political regimes kill people for dissension…does that mean we should be anarchists and overthrow our political regime (I’d actually almost be in favor of that right now….1.20.09!) I get what you’re saying but it’s not exactly applicable in the broadest sense…at least where I’m coming from.
As for your second point, I actually don’t do things just because someone told me to. I am from a school within Christian ethics that advocates individual moral agency.
Individual moral agency works like this: Careful study of scripture reveals timeless principles like love your neighbor, care for orphans and widows, etc. those principles comprise a Christian world-view. That Christian world-view is the lens that all ethical situations pass through. It is up to the individual how one should behave in a certain situation based on a Biblical world-view. It is doing right, because it is right, not because someone told you to do it.
Christianity has wielded power over people in the past. I am part of a new wave of Christians who seek to uncover those corruptions within the history of the faith and restore it to what Jesus intended.
Christianity in its ideal form is perfect…however…it’s like socialism in that it looks really good on paper…but in actual practice it is subject to the corruption, or benevolence of its leaders. Christianity has unfortunately had some terrible leaders, so has the United States. I’m not willing to jump ship on Christianity just as much as I’m not willing to sail to Switzerland because of the corruption of its leaders.
People suck…it’s a reality of life. I’m seeking a Christianity that helps people suck less.
July 23rd, 2008 on 1:10 pm
An important part in the article is the title. “Fundamentalist” Christian it says. Fundamentalism is harmful for every belief system, even scientific belief systems. In Christianism, Jesus himself was versus fundamentalism. He criticizes bitterly the orthodox affiliation to rites neglecting the care of the neighbor. He was in the company of “sinners” or “undesirables”, just because they needed him and his ideas (and beliefs) more than the rightful people. The problem ist not “Christianism” but the fundamentalist belief system and the selection of ideas to which it adheres. That’s because part of fundamentalism is an irrational and strict selection of ideas (generally those which inspire hate, resentment, antagonism, superiority, pride, etc.), disregarding ideas that antagonise with their narrow-mind focus (even if they are core ideas).
July 23rd, 2008 on 8:34 pm
chaos is god. god is chaos.
every beliefs are true.
it only depends who looks at it and from where.
July 24th, 2008 on 12:12 am
u know i’m tired of people looking for problems in other peoples beliefs in order to belittle them and make their make their personal belief seem like the truth i’m not choosing sides because I personally am a farely religious guy but i can also admit to the faults in what i was taught… both sides have their faults (evolution, adam/eve for example) those gaps that people can spend their lives trying to prove may never happen and in the end no one wins so cut the arguing and stick to YOUR beliefs no one can ever tell u your wrong cause guess what no one knows the truth and may possibly never know
July 24th, 2008 on 3:01 am
man some people are insufferable
quit believing in god
no god has intruded in your life
it’s time to stop believing now
the time has come
do we need to hold your hand?
July 24th, 2008 on 7:59 am
[...] 24, 2008 by Daniel Florien Here’s a funny list of the top ten signs you’re a fundamentalist Christian. I was guilty of them all. Thank Baal I’m [...]
July 24th, 2008 on 9:04 am
My personal favorite - Killing a fetus is wrong, against god’s will and you will burn in hell for it. Killing a bunch of brown people in a foreign land, however, is just fine and dandy. What, are you unpatriotic or something?
(added you to my blog roll, btw…
)
July 24th, 2008 on 9:32 am
Hi Derrick
Sorry for spelling your name wrong by the way. It happens some times. I’m dyslexic.
In response.
I have noticed that religion seems to help “the wrong sort” into positions of power and does to a large degree seem to have been shaped by those same people.
Morality
Altruism and selfishness are the crudest classifications of morality and are demonstrably present in many animal populations. It is often an advantage to behave in a way that helps others if you can expect the same in return. But in any such population there rapidly emerges and advantage in being selfish. Literally taking advantage of the help provided by others to increase your breeding potential. This only works so far however as the advantage dissipates as selfishness spreads through a population. You can see that this leads to what is known as an evolutionary stable state where a portion of the population is selfish and a portion altruistic.
This is what we find in a very large number of animal populations that live in close proximity.
My point is that the morality you (and I) feel is actually intrinsic to humans and many other animals. And its obvious lack of homogeneity is perfectly natural also. There have been many thousands of religions and they all had some morality. Simply the morality that was most acceptable at the time and place. Religion fundamentally needs to be accepted to be successful and evolve.
You are talking a lot about Christianity. Do you draw a distinction between religions? because I see none.
“People suck…it’s a reality of life. I’m seeking a Christianity that helps people suck less.”
I think to be honest your best hope might be to use Christianity to “make” people suck less.
Its not what it was designed for but it would be applicable to the task.
I find it very difficult when people claim to have studied a certain religion when actually they have spent enumerable hours pondering the dogma created in a religion and not the actual history and development of it.
It is very hard to here people say “Jesus said …” It is extremely doubtful whether a person called Jesus ever existed. There is no contemporary record of him. The Romans where fastidious record keepers and we have at least 400 contemporary text that do not mention Jesus.
Paul and his friends where desperate to retain some of the Judaic traditions in the face of the Roman genocide after the Jewish uprising. It was simply not possible to be Jewish any longer in the Roman empire during the period Pauls gospels (the first) where being written. (incidentally 30 to 50 years after the supposed timing of the Christs death. During that period a very catchy religion was required that could survive the roman purges. So it would seem that Paul and his mates sat down and knocked one up. By his own admission Paul never met Jesus. All other gospels appear later and from more distant sources. He seems to have pieced together the ideas of previous and contemporary cults and sects and fitted them into the existing Jewish monotheistic doctrine. This was just what was needed and seems to have been very well received not just among the former Roman Jews but throughout the empire. It was taken up quickly by numerous sects who all had there own versions. It was probably a very diverse set of ideas by the time it was adopted by Constantine to aid first in his military campaign and later in consolidating the roman empire. Constantine seems to have been the man most singly responsible for pruning these sects and by persecution and persuasion establishing the standard roman church. Unfortunately a little too much of Pauls repressed homosexual guilt became a core part of this early religion. (just my personal feeling) So many centuries and countless revisions and editing (Canonization) of disparate writings and you end up with the texts (of which there are still many versions) known as the new testament.
No evidence at all that anyone called Jesus ever existed. This would be the first place I would look if I was weighing up a religion. It is amazing to me that people who spend there lives studying theology never bother to check even the basics.
July 24th, 2008 on 11:14 am
[...] Simple. Take a look at the top ten signs you’re a fundamentalist christian. [...]
July 24th, 2008 on 12:57 pm
do you guys never get bored taking the piss out of christians. the majority of the world believe in something laughable, and a cynical tone is unlikely to be persuasive. dare i say it but all this obsession with stating the obvious makes you look a little fundamental yourself.
July 24th, 2008 on 6:56 pm
Try the list here just for fun:
http://www.tektonics.org/parody/fundyath.html
July 24th, 2008 on 9:45 pm
You use science to prove science is wrong and, in fact, the proof is in the science behind the Bible Code.
lol, great article!
Cheers, Ian
July 25th, 2008 on 7:32 am
i get tired of people talking about christians “forcing” their beliefs on other people. thats just not true. we are just as assertive about our beliefs as any other religion. its just the fact that there are so many christians that people feel uncomfortable if they are not. does that mean that those people who made a real commitment should stop being assertive. its your job to try to ridicule and disprove us. i know this. but its our job to stand up for what we believe in the same way. as a person thats online a lot, i honestly feel like im bombarded with non-christian opinions a lot more than christian opinions. i dont hold that against the people stating those opinions, but it does get annoying when people constantly say that christians are forcing their religion on others. i dont think being assertive, mission trips (helping the poor and sick), and outreach programs are really forcing anything on anyone. but thats just my opinion. i wouldnt want anyone to feel like i forced them to read this.
July 25th, 2008 on 8:57 am
Maybe God will give nonbelievers 1 more chance b4 they die?? Hopefully,they will die a slow death and be allowed to ask for forgiveness? One can only hope,right? Thats why we have free will. As far as evidence??? there is plenty.people claim to be sooo smart and and christians sooo sutpid but they sure do have some strange and FALSE information. I have a good idea…. DO some research. For your self! DOnt listen to other people. Read the bible for yourself THEN think for yourself, eh???? God Bless everyone
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son for whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have ever lasting life! :)))
July 25th, 2008 on 10:33 am
Many people make science their religion.
As my 3-year old used to say, when he was three and still closer to the source, “I can’t know” about all kinds of things. I found great wisdom in his words as I realized there are many things our mortal brains “can’t know”. We literally cannot comprehend them.
We also seem biologically predisposed to have people agree with us. Probably a social/survival sort of thing. This makes us want to share our beliefs with others.
Great theological discussion! See you in hell, my friends!
July 26th, 2008 on 4:07 pm
yup
Not listened to a single word have you.
Do you think bald is a hair color?
Science is not in any possible way a religion
Do you think my condensed history of Christianity is false? Cause it ain’t. It’s based on solid research.
Radio 4 in the uk had a great interview a couple of days ago with a prof who is doing med research on twins.
Twins that he studies have shared backgrounds and environments. He studies identicle against non identicle twins to work out what traits are genetic. He has found lots of cool medical stuff about desease etc but he has also look at behaviors. Some suprising stuff. Fidelity for example seems to be inherited genetically.
But guess what else has a very strong genetic corolation?
Yup religion.
A portion of the population are born with a genetic propensity for religion and mysticism.
So if you where thinking that maybe telephone horoscope lines or prayer services where too much of a niche to make any money think again. They are sure fire easy money. Cause a big chunk of the population of the world are quite literally born gullable.
July 26th, 2008 on 4:11 pm
t
Your really thick. A very large number of self contradictions in a very short post is a dead give away.
July 26th, 2008 on 4:32 pm
Dianne there may be something that the human brain cannot comprehend but I would not bet on it. If you take a tour of the non fiction in a good library you can see that humans are capable of some pretty amazing comprehension. You are wareing ,standing on and have probably even recently eaten some great examples of what is possible when someone fully comprehends something. The iPhone I’m clumsily typing on is kin awsome.
But be carefull because it has a camera that some people believe steals your soul.
July 27th, 2008 on 9:28 am
@Chris(tian) What world are you living in?
Christians are constantly trying to force their beliefs on others. They knock on your door at 10am on Saturday when you’re trying to sleep. They stop you in the street as you walk past their church and ask you to come in and be prayed for. They put brocures through your door, despite the ‘No circulars’ sign.
Fundamentalist christians campaign against vital stem-cell research (and that’s not just living by their own beliefs - they could choose not to participate in the research, and refuse to consent to treatments resulting from such research). They campaign against abortion and birthcontrol…and consequently have managed in some parts of the world to make these hard to come by, denying freedom of choice to those who do not share their beliefs. In America, they are trying to force their own mythology in schools - and want it taught on the same footing as scientific theory, and at the same time try to prevent sex education. In AIDs-ridden parts of Africa, christians not only actively campaign against condom use, there have been instances of the catholic church lying to African congregations that condoms *cause* AIDS.
Everywhere that there is a christian majority, they attempt to enshrine the prejudices of their religion and so-called morality into law. This has disasterous effects on scientific progress, healthcare, and personal choice. Think about it - proposition 22 and its equivalents, laws against homosexuality, the Irish ‘Magdalene Laundries’, the countries where abortions are illegal - even for a 13-year-old incest victim.
As far as out-reach programs go, I don’t know what they’re like in your church… the local ones I know of don’t provide any practical assistance to anyone. They will go door-to-door to preach at you, or offer to drive you to church, but you’ll never catch them mowing my 87-year-old neighbour’s lawn, or driving someone to the hospital or the supermarket.
July 27th, 2008 on 11:13 am
mallory,
You have sadly missed my point. Everything you just said is the result of misguided and simple minded Christians. If you knew anything about Christians, you would know that we cannot be grouped into one term. There are many different sects of Christianity. I personally believe that a lot of them are bad and misrepresent Christianity. The number one being Catholicism. Catholicism was created in order to exploit Christianity, not to help it. Just to clarify real quickly, when people use the “without Catholicism, Christianity wouldn’t be wide spread” argument, they are absolutely wrong. Christianity was growing at an extremely fast rate, and like anything good in this world, someone saw a chance to exploit and corrupt it i.e. Catholicism. Don’t get me started on Catholicism, because I could type all day. Imam on my lunch breaks, so that will have to wait. You said churches don’t have outreach because the churches around you don’t. You should be smart enough to not base your judgments off of such little evidence. Second, you probably don’t even know what your churches are doing in your community. Sounds to me like you never visit them. Most of the time you don’t see the work the church does because when people come with needs, they still want to have their identities protected. I have a friend whose family was homeless four times growing up. Every time their church helped. They were embarrassed by this and rather than flaunt them around like “look at the poor family we helped”, they didn’t mention it to the congregation. And when you talk about coming to your door at 10 am in the morning, if it was a girl scout selling cookies, you wouldn’t have anything to say about that organization. Also, the people that do that are calling Mormons (faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrr from Christianity. Check this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo ) and Jehovah’s witnesses (the same sect that didn’t believe the world would make it to 2000). These are not a good representation of all the Christians around the world. If you talk to the mass majority of Christians and asked them about a 13 year old girl that was raped by her father having an abortion, they would either be torn or say that is okay. your right, Christians don’t think that people should be able to run away from their mistakes by ending the life of a child, but I think that there should be legislation to deal with incest, death of child or mother, age (as related to death of mother). And yes, the mass majority of abortions are performed because people don’t want to be “inconvenienced”. and the mass majority of Christians do think that aborted baby shouldn’t be “scrapped out” for parts and used to stem cell research, however if you asked them if using placentas is okay as well as other methods, they’d say yes. The church is a community, so even a guy doesn’t put on a shirt that says “I am doing this for my church” and mow and older women from the churches lawn, doesn’t mean that isn’t happening. And usually when someone needs to be driven to the hospital, they call on their family first, then friends, then church. The funny thing is that many times, their family and friends all go to church. If they call the church, you better believe that the church is going to try to help out. the fact that you maid those previous statements about this proves that you have never been a part of a church and if you were, you probably didn’t care enough to notice these things or build the same social networks people put so much emphasis when it comes to school, work, or their secular life. Many churches maintain a really since of community in places where people don’t even care to get to know their neighbors. And through these networks, people are always helping each other out. One big part of church outreach is through youth programs. I was able to attend trips and make friends because my church paid for me to go. This was all before I was really into god mind you. A lot of churches offer a lot of programs that don’t even preach to the kids, because they just want to get to know the kids and what they like before “forcing” god down their throats. A lot of churches give out free music cads of Christian band and artists, not as a contract, but as a gift. If the kid doesn’t want it, they don’t get ostracized or treated bad. The cod is just left on the table. Heck my youth mister helped pay for my first year of college. Your comments are the result of the general bandwagons that people jump on because they get a since of power and control out of trying to tear down religion. They make generalizations about the whole Christianity and forget that Christians accept their flaws and try to work on them. Christians also accept the fact that they are going to be misrepresented till the end of time. I am okay with that. I am not going to tell you that you’re going to burn in hell, because I don’t know that, and I don’t know if imp going to burn in hell. I know what I believe and I am assertive about it. You should really try to do some real research on something that you stand so adamantly opposed to. Believe me, I have don’t research on evolution, Islam, and atheism, deism and agnosticism. I suggest you do your own research on church history, the bible and what the real face of Christianity looks like cause even I will admit that it’s got a lot of dirt on it right now.
July 27th, 2008 on 10:30 pm
Don’t think any religion should be threatening…went to my sis’s church one time, only because she asked me to and was near death from serious illness in hospital. The pastor said “anyone leaving this church who has not accepted Jesus Christ in his/her heart is in grave danger”. I went in with an open mind…I came out furious for the threat.
July 28th, 2008 on 6:56 am
Mallory
Christians like all religious people at the broadest level fall into two categories plus the intersection of the two.
Your either gullible, evil or both.
If you believe stuff you’ve been told without any evidence then your gullible.
If you know its all hog wash put spout it anyway to keep you in mistresses (or rent boys. They seem popular with American ministers) and helicopters then your evil. Cause deceit is bad in my book.
If your both then you can work it out.
Don’t go thinking your anything else because you will definitely fall into one of the two.
Now that is a little insulting and I don’t mean to upset the very nice god fearing people of which there are very many.
But religion gets such an easy ride with everyone delicately tiptoeing around the obvious (it is just plain laughable rubbish and kills lots of people) That the context in which religion is discussed needs to be shifted a little back towards sanity.
Miracles don’t happen, ever they just plain don’t.
So most religious conversation is verging on the insane.
Lets stop pretending its not crazy.
July 28th, 2008 on 7:43 am
@Whoever posted the post starting “mallory, You have sadly missed my point” (I’m assuming Chris(tian))
1) Please post under your own name or nick, don’t use mine.
2) So what you’re saying is anyone who calls themselves christian, and forces christian beliefs on others, is in fact, not a christian, or not a ‘good’ christian? They’re still pushing ‘christianity’ on the rest of us.
3) I didn’t claim that no church has useful out reach programs, only that I have never seen one. Contrary to your beliefs, non-mormon, non-JW christians do come and knock on doors ‘recruiting’ for their churches. They tend to come on Saturdays, and offer to drive you to their church on Sunday. I have encountered Anglicans, Presbyterians and Baptists doing this.
4) Contry to your interpretation of my life, I used to attend church, and continued to attend several years past becoming agnostic, as it was important to my parents. I attempted to become involved in community assistance programs offered in my parish, primarially because I wanted to be doing something useful with my time. I am speaking from experience when I say that we offered no practical assistance. We would raise money to send children on ‘youth camps’ (read christian indoctrination - I attended some), we would raise money for ‘the church’, pray for people, we had rosters to drive people to church, and visit the elderly to read the bible to them. But the elderly parisioner who could not drive was on their own when it came to getting to the supermarket. (I know, I ended up going on my bike and bringing back bags hung from my handlebars). When a member of the congregation, who I happen to know donated 10% of his income to the church every year was going blind, the church offered prayers, but did nothing to raise the money needed for the injections that could save his sight. He ended up selling his house. My 87 neigbour goes to church just around the corner from me, but I’m the one who mows his lawn and weeds his garden. I know his church won’t help him, because I called them and asked, as my own health is not good. They offered to send someone over to read the bible to him.
I’m not saying that all christians are bad, or unwilling to put themselves out to help others. I’m sure there are many who would go to the effort, or believe that their prayers, bible readings and youth programs do immense amounts of good.
What I was saying is that Christians do force their views on others, (again, not all christians) and they can do a great deal of damage in the process. If you disagree with the christian label being used to dignify bigotry, intolerance and denial of choice, then get out there and show the world that not all christians agree. Don’t just rant on a comments page and say they’re ‘bad christians’.
July 28th, 2008 on 7:05 pm
Great list. And comments as well. As someone who grew up and still resides in the Bible Belt, I hear this crap all the time from fundamentalists. And of course I got to hear it from the Mike Huckabee supporters. *shudders* My uncle’s boss is from the town where Huckabee is from. I was told that when Huckabee ran for some sort of political office (maybe it was state senate? I don’t remember.), very few people from his own hometown would vote for him. That just goes to show how much of a great morally-correct Christian he is! But somehow he was supposed to be the Messiah and bring God back to this country, etc etc etc. I suppose until the end of time there will always be some idiot fundamentalists to be taken advantage of for political gain. Enough with the politics.
Matter of fact, my boyfriend (been dating for a little over 2 months) is all Christian and stuff. He knew I was agnostic beforehand. He claims he prays for me and all of that. I told him why I am agnostic, yet he claims that he is proof that God exists. I tell him I believe in science, and I just can’t see how it can be proven (or dis proven).
Now, I will say that the Bible does have some good things, but there are many negative and very violent things as well. I just do not see how Christianity can be seen a loving religion when taking such things into consideration as The Crusades, stonings, and the treatment of women. I just do not get it.
Sac religious humor happens to be one of my favorite types of humor. One day I said to my boyfriend, “So, is it ok to be stoned as long as it isn’t by drugs?” He wasn’t amused one bit.
I’m pretty tolerant of other people’s beliefs, but I still like to have a little fun every now and then…especially when said beliefs are shoved in my face.
Kudos to Mallory, BTW. Awesome job.
July 28th, 2008 on 7:14 pm
Also, have you noticed the many fundamentalists who support capital punishment, yet oppose abortion because it’s “murder?” I often hear, “Fry ‘em in der electric chair! Kill ‘em!” followed up by, “You don’t have the right to an abortion! It’s merdurrrrhhh.” Oh and you can’t forget the war mongers either who are supposedly “Pro-Life.” If they truly were Pro-Life, wouldn’t they not support the death penalty or unnecessary war?
“Thou Shalt Not Kill” WTF? I never saw any exceptions written within the 10 Commandments….or am I just blind?
July 29th, 2008 on 8:59 am
@Queen Maeree - I’ve always been a little confused about the ten commandments…there’s the two different versions thing, and the ‘Thou shalt not seethe a kid in it’s mothers milk’ thing. It’s no wonder some of the fundies are confused as well.
I mean, supposedly even *god* couldn’t keep them straight from one day to the next.
July 29th, 2008 on 10:15 am
Mallory, sorry for posting under your name. I don’t know how that happened. As you can see I posted the same comment twice because an error message I got. Maybe it happened then. I am glad you understand that not all Christians are bad. Believe me I do go out in the world and show people that not all Christians act this way. Too bad I haven’t been able to reach your parish. I think that people try to bash the religion because of the people. if you went to church for so many years, there’s really no way to deny the legitimacy of the philosophies offered up in the bible, unless you are just seeing red and don’t want to actually listen to things. The saddest part is that people really think that all Christians are sheep and don’t question the bible. I’m not one of those sheep and neither are my friends. This forum doesn’t really accomplish anything, because people are still unwilling to believe in god before man. We rely so much on the actions of others that we fail to see the point. God exists outside of all the mistakes and flaws in the church. Like I said in my previous post, everything that’s good in this world is eventually corrupted by us. That’s the bottom line. You try to discredit Christianity (representation of Christ and god) by talking about the Christians. Congratulations, you’re absolutely right. We are a bunch of lowly bastards who make selfish and stupid decisions. But we don’t always do that. And god understands that. I think that if you tried to connect with god without paying attention to the Christians around you, you would agree with me. Just start reading your bible and reflecting on your life. Look for connections. I did that. Once I realized those connections, I actually had my own relationship with god and didn’t need my church. This has happened over the past 4 years while I have been away at college. I tried to go to a lot of the churches around my college, but saw some of the same things you have witnessed. So I decided to stop going to church. It was then that I actually was able to read the bible and developed my own relationship with god that wasn’t linked to the social contracts I had made with others (like you and your parents). I saw how the philosophies of Christianity actually carried well into my everyday life and how I didn’t need to rely on other Christians to validate my own faith. That’s when I began to develop the perspective I take today. Before attacking a group, its best to define the base commonalities of that group. Not all Christians do the same things, but there are core beliefs that hold our group together. I can’t vouch for those that don’t help the needy and tell Africans that condoms are evil, but I can vouch for the core beliefs and those who choose to uphold them. Please do not assume that those who call themselves “good” Christians don’t also make mistakes. We’re all humans, and whether you believe it or not, Christianity recognizes that fact.
July 29th, 2008 on 11:43 am
Mallory…there are indeed two recordings of the ten commandments, but they are identical in content. The passage in Deut. has a little extra explanation on a couple of them, but as far as the base commandment itself, they are the same. The latter is a restatement of the ten commandments in exodus. The goat in the mother’s milk thing is part of the holiness code I think. That’s the whole list of dos and donts that were under the “old covenant” before Jesus established the “new covenant.”
July 30th, 2008 on 4:58 am
1. Funny how we all should “love our enemies” when god kills all of his and sends them to hell
2. Also funny how everyone blames the “devil” for everything bad but yet the bible says that the devil has no power and cant do anything unless god grants him permission…. So isn’t “god” the one to blame? If a parent gave their child a gun and told them to go shoot someone, wouldn’t you blame the parent?
July 30th, 2008 on 2:58 pm
There’s a lot of discussion here, but it all boils down to this:
1) The god exists because it says so in the holy scriptures.
2) The holy scriptures are right, because they were written or inspired by the god.
3) I’m a gibbering idiot.
Any questions?
July 31st, 2008 on 7:42 am
@ Christian
In response to your post:
You said: “I think that people try to bash the religion because of the people.”
Of course we do. This page is about fundie bashing - see the title. But, seriously, what is the religion, if not the people who follow it? Without ‘the people’ the religion is a collection of unread documents, and some empty buildings.
You said: “If you went to church for so many years, there’s really no way to deny the legitimacy of the philosophies offered up in the bible, unless you are just seeing red and don’t want to actually listen to things.”
Have you READ the bible? The bible is full of contradictions, has some stories that are interesting reading, others that are horrific, some nice poetry, and some really boring bits. A lot of the time god comes off looking like a torturous homocidal monster. There are some valuable philosophies on offer, about love your neighbour, do unto others, and forgiveness, which I agree noone can argue with. You really have to pick and choose though, as there are many much less wholesome lessons on offer. Don’t forget that the bible also advocates a man offering up his virgin daughters for gang rape, genocide, vandalism of the temples of other religions, slavery, and homophobia (to name a few).
You’re obviously picking and choosing within the bible - which is a good thing. You may not be taking advantage of all the other useful books out there. I’ve found that most religious books and philosophies have useful lessons if read critically and taken selectively.
I’d recommend to anyone the book ‘Godless Morality’ by Richard Holloway, as an excellent discussion of ethics and moral behaviour. It may give you some insight into secular humanism. Interestingly, despite the title, it was writen by a bishop. (to the athiests - don’t let that put you off. He really does leave god out of the arguements).
July 31st, 2008 on 8:46 am
I suppose my biggest problem with this entire conversation is the fact that the fundamentalist Christians and those atheists, agnostics, etc. who are replying on here aren’t much different from each other. You’re each just pushing your own agenda. I think that the most important reason for me being here is to be a loving and generous person, at least that’s what my religious faith and my liberal politics suggest. So why is it such a big deal as to how we each get there? I guess if you’re more into arguing than saving the world (I don’t mean religiously at all; only that there are millions of kids that don’t have food, families that are suffering to no end because they don’t have healthcare.)
These are not Christian or non-Christian problems. These are human survival problems. Unfortunately both extreme sides get too caught up in the small details to even bother with the help that is easily given to other people for survival. I do volunteer work, and I don’t really care about mentioning my faith because I’m not interested in telling them where they may or may not go in “the next life.” Because right now, they need groceries to feed their kids, and a house to shelter them from rain. I don’t think God would argue against this.
I’ve been burned just as much as the next person by Fundamentalist beliefs. I pretty much think they have the whole thing wrong and it kills me to be branded by the same iron as them. I think we would probably argue about just about everything.
I guess my point is that if you aren’t concerned with anything except bashing Christians or bashing non-Christians, stay inside and see this world rot (again, not in a religious “saving” manner, but let the city rape all the children and the criminals steal from the families and let everyone die of starvation when they didn’t have to.)
July 31st, 2008 on 8:49 am
And also, I didn’t mean that everyone on here needs to get off their ass and do something else, because obviously, I’m in that group. Only that if that’s your main goal, to prove to the other side that you’re right, and to get them to join you, that’s kind of pointless. You both know you won’t throw down your beliefs and come running to the other side. However, conversation is always good. There’s always more we can learn.
July 31st, 2008 on 12:01 pm
I don’t actually care about this, I just stumbled onto it, but at the ripe age of 11 I broke down my options (I’m not religious, not athiest. Frankly, I don’t give a shit). I went to a private school with an active group of fundamentalists. Now I’m 21 and it has been nice in this post to reflect on my thoughts at that age - this is largely an excerpt from my journal, with a few exceptions and a conclusion.
In your short lived (pun!) existence, the truth or falsity of beliefs is hardly an issue. One day you’ll die and that will be the end of your existence. There is only one thing we can all agree on: The mystery of conscience has an answer and absolutely nobody will ever be able to describe what happens after death. So make up your own mind and piss off.
Here is an agnostic dose of shut the Hell up.
option a (No heaven & religious): Live through life as a happy ignorant fool and die one day. Spend much time bothering people who don’t agree with you. Big deal, you lived happily - end of story.
option b(Heaven and religious): Live through life as a happy, self assured fundamentalist and you go to Heaven. Spend much time bothering people about it all, but who cares - more Heaven for you.
option c(No Heaven and atheist): You were right! Spend a good amount of time pulling your hair out stressing over those ‘darned fundamentalists’ and one day die and that’s all. Laugh at people who eat the words of The Bible as a majority of atheists do with science books. After all, the point of life is to find truth, not happiness, so that… well… maybe there’s no point to it at all.
option d(Heaven and atheist): Piss off God and go to Hell. Or maybe Heaven. As there is no test for this, just as you cannot prove God’s existence, you cannot know anything about this. A risky belief given the circumstance.
Finally, option e (Who gives a shit): Grow up, understand that there are some questions better left unattended, enjoy life and live in peace. If there’s a God, then It probably wants me to be happy. Everyone in this chatroom will die soon. Guess I’ll see you either in the dirt or the sky.
Peace
August 1st, 2008 on 12:01 am
If god is all-powerful, then CAN GOD MAKE A BURRITO THAT IS TOO SPICY FOR EVEN HIM TO EAT?
No. He can’t.
Hail Baldr!
Hail Borr!
Hail Bragi!
Hail Búri!
Hail Dagr!
Hail Delling!
Hail Eir!
Hail Forseti!
Hail Freyja!
Hail Freyr!
Hail Frigg!
Hail Fulla!
Hail Gefjun!
Hail Heimdall!
Hail Hermóðr!
Hail Hlín!
Hail Höðr!
Hail Hœnir!
Hail Iðunn!
Hail Jörð!
Hail Kvasir!
Hail Lofn!
Hail Loki!
Hail Máni!
Hail Mímir!
Hail Nanna!
Hail Nerþus!
Hail Njörðr!
Hail The Norns!
Hail Nótt!
Hail Óðinn!
Hail Rynkar!
Hail Sága!
Hail Sif!
Hail Sjöfn!
Hail Skaði!
Hail Skirnir!
Hail Skuld!
Hail Snotra!
Hail Sól!
Hail Thor!
Hail Týr!
Hail Ullr!
Hail Urd!
Hail Váli!
Hail Vár!
Hail Vé!
Hail Verdandi!
Hail Víðarr!
Hail Vili!
Hail Vör!
August 1st, 2008 on 3:30 pm
One of the top signs you are fundamentalist Christian is that you are stupid as fuck!
August 1st, 2008 on 6:23 pm
Top Ten Signs You’re Not (Na na na na na)
1. You fear a ten inch tall wooden carving named Tutenkamen.
3. The alien grays are really biblical angels coming to enlighten us.
4. Bigfoot is not a protagonist in the Bible.
5. The government is seeking to oppress you with theocratic special interest groups.
6. You are descended from a family of apes.
7. God is an ape.
8. God is Donkey Kong.
9. God is King Kong!
10. You don’t know what humans will evolve into but it is incredibly god-like.
August 3rd, 2008 on 9:05 pm
Okay - ran across this website and took the time to answer (without sarcasm or insult) each point.
If interested check out http://terrymcfall.com/god/topten.htm
August 3rd, 2008 on 9:28 pm
Terry McFall: From reading your response, I have to say that it doesn’t seem like you’re a fundamentalist Christian…
August 4th, 2008 on 8:27 am
k3vin: I guess we could argue the definition of a fundie but I think I’m a lot closer to being one than most others.
Thanks for taking the time to read my response… kind of surprised me.
August 4th, 2008 on 9:48 am
The way I understand fundamentalism is that if someone upholds a holy scripture as the infallible truth then they are a fundamentalist.
A rational fundamentalist Christian (?) has to separate themselves so far away from scripture just to fit into modern society. I don’t see people stoning unruly children in the outskirts of town. I don’t see many Christians that would allow slavery (like the bible). I don’t see many Christians that think the punishment for rape is to pay them 50 shekels of silver to girl’s father and you have to MARRY the girl. You can see where this one can be exploited to not be a punishment at all. In fact, this happens in the bible.
My point is that if you are a fundamentalist Christian you have to mentally modify the contents of the book in which you believe is true (by definition of fundamentalist).
You seem to be introduced to only the good parts of the bible (by today’s standards) and if you’re following a book that’s supposed to be infallible and true then why not read and uphold the whole thing? Smells like hypocrisy to me.
August 5th, 2008 on 11:33 pm
Hey K3vin - took a while to think it thru but here are my replies…
<>
I do believe scripture is error free and inspired by God… I won’t pretend to understand it all - but I still trust that God’s message has been revealed without error thru the Bible.
<>
Regarding fundies separating themselves from scripture, there will always be some separation due to cultural differences. We no longer grade English papers using a 100 year-old dictionary because the culture has changed and older rules, while excellent at the time, are no longer applicable. But that certainly doesn’t make English classes an exercise in hypocrisy.
It’s tempting to choose which biblical commands should be followed literally and which should not. Jesus was presented with this exact argument by religious leaders attempting to trap him into stoning an adulterous woman. His response was “whoever hasn’t sinned throws first.” He wasn’t condoning adultery as much as deferring to a higher law of grace and mercy. Another time he was asked which commands were greater than others (as though to pay more attention to some) and his response was that all commands are fulfilled by loving God and loving your neighbor.
<>
Excellent point! This is what many people, including Christians, struggle with… NOT wanting to think thru the difficulties of life and apply WISDOM to their KNOWLEDGE. Most of the time we’re all worn down to the point of just wanting a list of rules to live by where little to no thought is necessary. That’s why people want to simply believe and follow without thinking or questioning.
But God doesn’t want that - the end result would be mindless robots incapable of handling the difficulties of free will. And my gosh, no amount of rules could possibly address the depth and complexity of human experience. This was the purpose of Jesus - to finish what was started with rules so a greater power of forgiveness and faith could be established.
<>
I’ve read thru the Bible quite a few times and am still amazed at it’s honest portrayal of fallen hypocritical people that God still thinks are worth saving. Yes - I will admit that I wince at the stupidity of some Christians today… but they are no worse than non-Christians. Why God continues to have faith in mankind is beyond me - I would have given up a long time ago.
Dude - one of the great things about God is his choice to accept and work thru struggling people… takes a lot of pressure off of trying to be perfect and allows me to at least smile at the really dumb parts of myself that I’d rather not admit exist.
August 20th, 2008 on 10:03 pm
Oh man, some of the examples given in the top ten list here isn’t even *close* to the worst of the stuff in the bible. Seriously, go check out skepticsannotatedbible.com. It’s pretty good, I must say.
August 23rd, 2008 on 12:24 pm
Let’s just say that if you’re over six years of age and you still have an invisible friend…
August 24th, 2008 on 8:15 am
“Ætherfiend on July 19th, 2008 8:25 pm
Felicity;
Not to be mean, but that’s like saying “If I do not acknowledge I am underwater, I will not drown.” It’d be awesome if that worked, but as it doesn’t..
You might want to try “If they’re not real, how can I..” instead?”
Sorry that is a cute metaphor but that doesn’t hold up. Water is real. There is a lot of scientific evidence for the existence of water. Hell on the other hand is in the land of make believe and has no proof off existence.
Isn’t it ironic that you condemn others for there beliefs yet when some one questions you its not right/fair.
Joejoejoejoejoe
August 31st, 2008 on 12:59 am
You know you’re a Fundamentalist Christian when…
-You get to heaven and are surprised to see people who are not from your church.
-You don’t acknowledge your friends when you run into them at Hooters.
-You’re afraid to have sex standing up because it might lead to dancing.
August 31st, 2008 on 5:06 pm
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe simply because it has been handed down for many generations. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in Holy Scriptures. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of Teachers, elders or wise men.
Believe only after careful observation and analysis, when you find that it agress with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all. Then accept it and live up to it.”
– The Buddha
They have the right idea.
December 4th, 2008 on 2:27 am
Let’s say I were to make the following claims:
-God contacted me and told me that Christ was not his son and that he is completely misrepresented in the bible.
-I’m sure this happened because I truly felt his presence.
Now, my belief should be just as valid as any Christian’s because it’s based on the same amount of evidence……none. Surely, you can call me crazy because I claimed to have experienced the supernatural.
But what religion hasn’t claimed the supernatural to have historically occurred? At what point am I considered insane? How is my faith system any different than that of any religious person’s? I’m asking these questions not to offend, but to engage in what I feel is a productive and reasonable conversation. To those who are religious, please don’t take offense. I mean well!
June 13th, 2009 on 10:03 am
You sure spent a lot of time on this. Christians must really bug you a lot. Why so defensive?
June 29th, 2009 on 8:20 am
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