Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian
- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
- You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
- Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
- You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend eternity in an infinite Hell of suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
- You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
- You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
Here are some that I thought were great from the comments:
- You believe that a book compiled from documents written decades, and in cases, centuries, after the deaths of the protagonists, which has been translated, re-translated, edited, censored, and had the language fudged to sound beautiful, then translated again, is still somehow the direct word of god. (Except the parts that you don’t actually want to live by, such as the command that you shall give anyone any of your possessions they ask for, and yea, give them more even than they ask.) - Mallory
- You believe that this document, taken from 2000 year old source materials, is grounds for your opposition of birth control, stem cell research, cell-hybridization, chemical abortion, cloning, etc. - Mallory
- You post comments on atheist and agnostic sites telling people they’re going to hell. - Mallory
- You rationally believe a religion based around a person who said “Love thine enemy” and who said one of the most important two things is “Love each other” and who supported a set of commandments which includes “thou shall not kill”. But simultaneously you support going to war, hating everyone who disagrees with you, and/or ruthlessly forcing your beliefs on others. - Lil Joshu
Edit: Number 4 didn’t get it’s own line for whatever reason. Thanks for pointing it out. ^_^
Edit: Added 4 new ones to the list from the comments.
Edit: Please note that I did not orginate this list. I simply wanted to respread it so more people could see it because it is indeed a great list. If anyone knows the original source of this list please let me know so I can give credit where credit is due. Possible true source: Scribd.com, EvilBible.com
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114 Responses to “Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian”
If god did exist, he would be the most merciful person ever.
I should really stop using sarcasm on the internet. It’s so hard to tell sarcasm from satire from a real opinion now-a-days. Which is sad.
12. You belive that this document, taken from 2000 year old source materials, is grounds for your opposition of birth control, stem cell research, cell-hybridisation, chemical abortion, cloning, etc.
If I do not believe in God, heaven and hell, how can I burn in hell? I do not even acknowledge its existence.
Anyways… Great list! I actually have these discussion with a friend of mine (she is very Christian) and we listen to each other and usually end with agreeing to disagree. Sometimes it is actually nice to get calm feedback from the “other side”
Not to be mean, but that’s like saying “If I do not acknowledge I am underwater, I will not drown.” It’d be awesome if that worked, but as it doesn’t..
You might want to try “If they’re not real, how can I..” instead?
You’re alluding to an argument that theists often use called Pascal’s Wager. I’m a little tired of describing exactly how useless this argument is so I’ll just point you here: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager
There is no scientific or logical basis for the existence of god or hell, so the assumption “They are not real” is more accurate than the preposition “If they are not real…”
As an intellectual exercise, see if you can think up any logical reasons why your god is the ‘correct’ one (assuming you believe in a god) rather than Zeus. (Reasons based on personal faith, circular logic, and safety in numbers don’t count.)
On another note - Score! My earlier comment has been added to the list. Here’s annother sign you’re a fundie -
14) You post comments on athiest and agnostic sites telling people they’re going to hell.
Kirsty, athiests do not fly planes into buildings. Faith without thought can be a terrible thing.
Religion seems like the world’s most popular placebo.
My faith is justifiable. It’s based on evidence, and is adjusted if warrented by changes in circumstances. I trust my friend to be honest; he lies to me, and I may trust him less. I trust the sun will rise each morning, due to the rotation of the earth on it’s axis. I spend the winter in alaska, and don’t expect much sun.
Evidence based faith allows us to make reasonable assumptions, and make decisions without perfectly complete data. Faith without any evidence is unjustifiable, and sets you up to make cognitive errors (eg, the bible said so, therefore it must be true). This can lead to extremely poor decision making.
For example: You have faith in god. The bible says the heavens revolve around the earth. The bible said so, therefore it must be true. Torture Galileo until he recants his theory that the earth orbits the sun.
There is a quote from Steven Weinberg about relion that sums up the danger of faith: “With or without it[religion], you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”
The goal for me as a Christian is to define exactly what it is that makes my lifestyle worthwhile and better than not living it. It’s not about heaven or hell, or fire insurance…in fact…I’d burn in hell for all eternity if I were a better person because I was a Christian. I am that devoted to the core philosophies of the person of Jesus Christ: Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself…and the resulting actions of that. It’s not about taking the Bible literally and formulating a set of “if x then y” statements. It’s understanding that throughout history, God has revealed Godself to humankind and the Bible is a record, albeit influenced by human error and bias, of that revelation.
Remember…many people call themselves Christians…few of them know what that actually means…and fewer still actually do it. That’s because it’s difficult and actually requires some intelligence to properly interpret scripture to be meaningful to a culture saturated with intelligence.
I’m willing to continue this conversation as long as it stays healthy.
You made a remark toward evolution that I disagree with. There is plentiful evidence for intermediate stages in evolutionary development and slowly and slowly we’re finding more and more ‘links’ to different species. Do you think we haven’t found several specimen for whale’s transition to water? Do you think we haven’t found evidence of the transition from Aves to reptilian species? I don’t understand where you think the evidence is lacking. Either way, I do not call it faith when subscribing to the theory of evolution because based on real evidence it would be even more unbelievable and unjustified than not believing evolution. Until there is a better theory to explain the mountain of evidence we have then I am forced to conclude that it is currently the most likely explanation for the origin of species.
This is a form of Occam’s razor and it’s consistently a good rule of thumb to live by. If you don’t know what that is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor
Basically, I believe that science is wonderful and fascinating. I also believe that science is incapable of understanding things that are beyond the natural world. Because of the incapacity of science to understand that which is supernatural, some have regarded the supernatural as non-existent. In my opinion, that is like asking a toddler to tell you about quantum physics, it is simply incapable of doing so.
Your next point just baffles me. There is nothing that leads me to believe that there is anything supernatural. Other than that, I have no other issues with your argument. However, if you were to argue that a supernatural force can cause effects in the natural world then it definitely is something that science can test. Can prayer work to help people? Let’s test it. The research done in this area all points to no effect at all. There are some who would say that prayer cannot be tested scientifically. I say to them to stop pretending like does have a statistical value.
Sorry I went off about prayer there. My main point is that anything science tests, by definition, must exist in the natural world. If a ’supernatural’ claim was proposed that could be verifiable and replicated then congratulations! It’s not supernatural. It’s real.
I think this could all fall back to my first statement: here is nothing that leads me to believe that there is anything supernatural.
Why are we bothered about people believing in the bible?
We’re not, per se. It’s what they do about it… such as, start religious wars, restrict the freedoms of others (abortion, gay rights, gay adoption, freedom of speech - Ireland still has blasphemy laws etc.) damage schools by teaching fairy-tails as science; Hold up stem-cell research that could lead to cures for terminal disease. Religion is the enemy of progress, both scientific and social.
About your assertion that “we have absolutely no idea one way or the other [whether god exists]“. ‘God’ is something people have made up. There is no evidence to support ‘god’ being anything more than something people have made up. Saying there is no god is like saying there is no Santa Claus, no fairies, no easter bunny, no giant blue flying elephants that hand out popsicles. They’re all things people made up. Sure, we can’t *disprove* their existance. That doesn’t mean we have ‘absolutely no idea one way or the other’ it means that as there is no evidence of existence, we can conclude beyond reasonable doubt they don’t exist. If we turn out to be wrong, there will be coal in our stockings, we’ll go to hell, and the blue elephants won’t be giving us any popsicles.
And don’t bring up Pascal’s wager. Just go here http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Pascal%27s_wager and save me repeating the arguements.
praze tor (cuz he haz a big ass hammer)
http://www.venganza.org/
But I still wouldn’t be so arrogant as to pretend I know for certain how we all came about and how the universe started ect. Its a never ending arguement…. Yes I agree made stupid by the bible followers, but still its catch 22.
The problem with saying that it is a never ending argument is that some people are not qualified at all to argue. It’s like walking in class not know arithmetic and arguing that 2+2=4 is an incorrect statement. To be able to argue your point you have to teach the other person all of the science they failed to learn when they were in school.
Also, we do have a theory which tries to explain the origin of life called abiogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis). I am in no way saying that this IS the way life arose but it is a theory which can be tested. And we did. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment) So this has increased the likelihood of this being somewhat true to me. In fact, there’s no better explanation that I see…
No-one knows for certain where the universe came from. There is much debating to be done - but it should be between scientific theories. The ‘god did it’ response is not a useful contribution to the debate.
Science may never come to a ‘certain’ answer, although there will someday be better theories and more evidence than we currently have.
Religion can give a certain answer to ‘Where did the universe come from?’ Answer: ‘God created it.’ But where did god come from?
Not having an answer is better than having a wrong answer and stopping looking.
And yeah I fully agree that there is so many question’s unanswered, it’s just that I have a very open mind, and in my opinion the possibility of a God or whatever he/she/it whatever maybe is possible, and if that was the case, I highly doubt science is going to show us this.
I too think it’s a bit tedious the way people preach on about this God, and openly laugh when I see sports stars thanking God for “the goal he just scored” ect …. yeah cause everyone knows God is a Man Utd fan.
@ Glenn why are you glad? Do you feel a better person?
There is also nothing to suggest that creation requires evolution…I’m a bastard believer in both. I’m a firm believer that the supernatural can affect the natural. How this happens varies. It could be that the supernatural causes the natural to flow according to the will of the supernatural.
As for prayer being scientifically testable, it’s not for several reasons. Firstly, Christian prayer is not magic. One cannot simply pray for something and it happens simply because of prayer. Imagine the catastrophe that would bring. Secondly, scripture speaks of unanswered prayers as “asking with wrong intentions.” Using prayer to “prove God” isn’t of any real benefit to anyone other than proving someone wrong. Thirdly, I would like to read about studies involving prayer and how they were conducted. I’m a bit cynical of the objectivity.
Ultimately, if my faith causes me to stay away from unhealthy habits like smoking, excessive drinking and promiscuous sex and leads me towards healthy behaviors such as helping others, persevering through adversity, and being a kind, gentle, intelligent person…I’d dare anyone to mock me. I’m far from perfect…but all I know is that I went from being an alcoholic to being clean and sober without therapy, was able to cope and heal from a rape when I was younger, and I’ve become a better person because of the influence of God in my life. You don’t know until you experience, and you don’t experience until you’re open.
“Ultimately, if my faith causes me to stay away from unhealthy habits like smoking, excessive drinking and promiscuous sex and leads me towards healthy behaviors such as helping others, persevering through adversity, and being a kind, gentle, intelligent person…I’d dare anyone to mock me. I’m far from perfect…but all I know is that I went from being an alcoholic to being clean and sober without therapy, was able to cope and heal from a rape when I was younger, and I’ve become a better person because of the influence of God in my life. You don’t know until you experience, and you don’t experience until you’re open.”
–> I’ve seen that in the essentials of Zen, Taoism, and Buddhism. Frankly, the way they execute their actions pretty much owns what any branch of Christianity has.
“As for prayer being scientifically testable, it’s not for several reasons. Firstly, Christian prayer is not magic. One cannot simply pray for something and it happens simply because of prayer. Imagine the catastrophe that would bring. Secondly, scripture speaks of unanswered prayers as “asking with wrong intentions.” Using prayer to “prove God” isn’t of any real benefit to anyone other than proving someone wrong. Thirdly, I would like to read about studies involving prayer and how they were conducted. I’m a bit cynical of the objectivity.”
—> I believe this is called ’setting your mind to do things’. You can do that on your own without a god. “I must have the strength to fight the evils of this world, etc. etc.”
I believe that there is a supreme being. Religion just screws thing up with additional traditons. We all know evil exists, because innocents can suffer from the wrongdoings of others. Now if the christian God remains true, then it must be true that he is good. Would a good being let innocents suffer? So there really is something wrong with the relgiuous practices and beliefs.
There is a clear reason for religion. (purpose)
The goal for you as a Christian is to do as you are told. The delusional thinking you are immersed in makes that easier. The people who create religions work hard to craft them into power machines. Your piffling pedantic musing about detail is irrelevant.
The purpose of religion is power. Indeed your Christianity is a classic example. Constantine took Paul’s careful assemblage to use as he saw fit. Its subsequent history is simply a litany of manipulation with the intent of increasing its effect. You can still see it happening in all religions today.
Grow up all of you before your consciences notice the blood and suffering that follows faith.
I have a reasonable expectation that the sun will rise tomorrow, just like it has any other day. It may not, but this is highly unlikely.
to quote some guy:
‘calling Atheism a faith is like calling bald a hair color’
But the key factor for me is that it wasn’t Zen, Taoism, Bhuddism, or anything besides Christianity that did it for me.
Christianity in execution has failed historically because of the corruption of human beings. There are people like myself who are trying to change that.
Christian theology states in regards to the problem of evil (if god is all powerful, all knowing, and good…then why do bad things happen) that all evil is traced to the free will of finite beings. This includes finite supernatural forces of good and evil. God created finite beings with free will and does not interfere with the free will of those beings. According to Christian theology, humans were created in the image of God, in perfect relationship with God, the breaking of partnership with God and each other in the first act of disobedience brought evil into the world. People can choose to do good or evil and God will not interfere with that choice, otherwise we do not have choices in life…which I am vehemently against. So…if evil happens, it’s not because God caused it, and God is not evil for not stopping it, humans are flawed because of their own free will.
Christian theology goes further to say that God does not allow innocents to suffer alone. God suffers with those who suffer at the hand of evil. The death of Jesus is the primary demonstration of this suffering. Scripture also affirms that those who suffer at the hands of evil will be liberated from their suffering into victory just as Christ was raised from death.
Please note: It is important that I distinguish myself from the stereotype of Christians that most have here. There ARE Christians who aren’t Bible thumping fire and brimstone proselytizers, and I am one of them. I value these conversations because I critically analyze my faith and the things that I believe and I hope that at some point, I am able to provide new insight into the mind of a Christian. I respond in respect and hope that everyone will continue to do the same.
The patriarchal powers that have dominated the church for centuries have indeed used the church for social control and many atrocities have been committed in the name of the church and of God. Those atrocities and controls are far from the message of liberation portrayed in the prophetic literature of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the person and teachings of Jesus Christ and therefore have no bearing on the core teachings of Christianity.
God upholds the autonomy of humans by not interfering with their free will. By not intervening, God expects that Christians exercise their own moral agency as they are transformed to be more like God. In other words, doing right because you’ve been transformed and given a new nature disposed to do right instead of just doing what you’re told is right.
If you REALLY want to know…I’m from a very small liberal minority in the church that advocates such theology. I’m actually doing the exact opposite of what I’m being told to do. I’m challenging the powers that be in the church that have made it into the sham that it is today.
I have no clue where you’d get the idea that I’m immature in any way. I’m engaging in dialog with people who believe differently than I do. I’m being enlightened to the thought processes of others while maintaining my convictions and beliefs without forcing them on anyone and not belittling those who believe differently than I do. That’s more maturity than I can grant to some. I am, in all ways, respectful of your beliefs. Please be respectful of mine.
Can an all powerful god create a rock so heavy he couldn’t move?
That is, I think, your argument.
You went on to say that “humans are flawed because of their own free will” and implied is that humans, in turn, cause the evil in the world to exist. To me, this is a very pessimistic view of mankind… however that doesn’t hold any weight for my argument. I would say that there are many people who are born into situations where they’re completely innocent. Diseases, Cancer, Viruses, Genetic diseases and more are forced upon people who have done nothing to deserve it. I can see a refutation to this argument being that we’re all living guilty because our ancestors ate an apple because a talking snake tempted them to. Really? REALLY??
I hate arguing in the Christian paradigm because, to me, it seems like arguing that not all the kings horses and all the kings men came to help put humpty dumpty back together again.
I hope this doesn’t offend you not because I am worried about offending people but because someone I’m arguing against ideas, not you.
Also, I think the whole idea of ‘being offended’ is completely fabricated bull to make others feel guilty for speaking freely. It’s annoying and I reject the whole idea.
I feel like I’m completely off the subject so I’ll stop right there…
It is not that God *cannot* prevent evil, it is that God *does not* prevent evil because of the nature in which humans were created. If God prevented all bad and only permitted good, we would not be able to act of our own free will. We would have no choices in life and essentially life would have no inherent purpose. We would be clocks ticking until we stop. By granting humans free will, we are able to forge meaning out of our lives. Unfortunately, there are those who forge evil from their lives.
If we do not desire God to do good in our lives, or acknowledge God, then we are left to our own devices.
There are people who have the misfortune of being born with diseases, viruses, etc. Unfortunately there is no clear and definite answer for their existence other than as the result of the fall of humankind. There are people who’ve studied this for years and have yet to come to a decent conclusion. The only answer that has sufficed, if not fully, is the answer given to Job for his suffering. God basically says that some things are beyond human comprehension and that trusting God is the important thing in those situations. As I said before, God does not sit back and watch those who suffer innocent of wrongdoing, Godself in the form of a human in Jesus Christ suffered and died as an innocent as well. God suffers with those who suffer and promises liberation and victory at the end of their struggle.
No offense taken, in fact, you are the first person I’ve talked about these topics with that responded with respect and tact. I appreciate that. We may not see eye to eye, but we can at least be respectful.
I always find it funny when atheists/agnostics complain about some Christians being arrogant or rude/hostile when they are just as arrogant, rude and hostile back. It’s so counterproductive to a solution.
You argued that god cannot prevent all evil because of the free will that god created us with. I made the argument that god cannot give good things because the free will that god created us with.
Do you now see the issue that Christians have at this point? Following this argument, every claim that is made in the bible in which god influences anyone would prohibit our free will and thus wasn’t from god. So god couldn’t have appeared and spoke from the burning bush and gave the ten commandments, couldn’t have told Noah about the impending flood, couldn’t have sent his son, born of a virgin, to the earth, etc.
I’m very interested as to what your response to this is…
My conversation with you is different than most theists as well. Most don’t seem to care what I have to say against their beliefs, which is a little saddening to me.
there are mysteries to life. But to answer them with ‘god’ leads to an ideas dead end.
Thanks for clarifying…you bring up an excellent point. The difference in my argument about free will is not that God cannot intervene (God can intervene because God is all powerful), but that God chooses not to intervene (out of a policy of upholding human autonomy). When God wants something done, God reveals God’s will to humans. Because God is good, God’s will is good. Humans then have the choice to follow and carry out God’s will, or to reject it and thereby perform an act of evil (ie sin) I am somewhere between a deist and a fundamentalist because while I don’t believe that God is detached from human activity, I also don’t believe that God is a micro-manager moving all the little chess pieces in our lives.
In every example you have of God doing something good with humans involved, the human had a choice to go through with it or not. Sometimes it seems a little less optional, such as Mary’s pregnancy in Luke, but the humans consented to God’s will.
The practical implication today is that Christians are to be conformed to the image of Christ (which is the benchmark since Jesus was fully God and fully human–uhh Chalcedonian Compromise I think? {my church history is a little fuzzy}) and in being conformed to the image of Christ, we are endowed with a new nature that is disposed to do good like feed the poor, care for orphans, widows and foreigners, exhibit love, joy, peace, patience ,kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, and self control. I also come from a school of theology called liberation theology which says that if a passage of scripture is not uplifting and liberating to all humans, its translation, interpretation, or authorship must be called into question. I do not believe in biblical infallibility because of the involvement of humans in the recording, copying, and translating of scripture.
[...] Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian [...]
In regards to free will I have to disagree that god does not interfere with free will. Even though god does give each human a choice in every situation in the bible I have to argue that god doing ANYTHING will limit the choices of the humans involved. If I said you can play with the blue or the red ball would you say that you had free will even though you were not able to choose green or any other color for that matter?
I’ll considerate on the Noah example. Did he have a choice to be contacted by god? Did he have a choice that there was a giant flood for 50 days? My answer to both is no.
–> consider the tribal people living in the remotest places of the world who once suffered the rash treatments of colonialists (Philippines, etc.). for one, Philippines once had a concept of a supreme being very similar to the christian god, named ‘bathala’. Accounts of early filipinos requesting that bathala protect them from the colonialists.
Philippines suffered 300 years under the Spanish colonialists. After spaniards established christianity there, filipinos embraced it. ‘Bathala’ became ‘Jesus’. Now how could you say that if you do not wish god to do you good, you are left with your own devices?
Philippines is just one example. Many other countries/tribes experienced being **’left with their own devices’** even with praying to god.
or maybe you’ll say that ‘they weren’t having enough faith’, that while being raped, slaved, and mocked, they doubted jeeesus’ help.
“The only answer that has sufficed, if not fully, is the answer given to Job for his suffering. God basically says that some things are beyond human comprehension and that trusting God is the important thing in those situations.”
—> while being raped, slaved, and mocked, the african-americans who suffered early american slavery must always remember that God could just be testing their faith? That in exchange for those, God has given them faith in him and to themselves, strength in willpower, and to be a ‘better person’?
It takes but one dream to change a person. It doesn’t have to be centuries of slavery just to teach an entire ethnic group some values. I could wake up in one dream feeling love for my people, without having to actually suffer.
Play god for one day. Rape your daughter so she may know the folly of being too rash with boys. Enslave your housemaid so he/she may know the value of having a bigger dream than just being a housemaid. Torture the prisoners so they may never again commit crimes.
Then again, some theists might consider saying that “perhaps God has a better reason that could outweigh the sufferings these people experienced, something bigger and better than what I stated”
I think with the red vs. blue ball (slight smirk) scenario, the truth of the matter is that regardless of free will, the earth and everything in it is finite. God is infinite. Out of the finite choices humans have in any given situation, God’s will, its antithesis, and many other in-betweens can be found.
Concerning the Noah scenario…I’ve honestly never thought about it like that. The answer to both questions is definitely no. I ponder the weight these concepts carry when they apply to God’s interaction with humankind. It would appear that as a general rule, God does not interfere with the free will of humans, but in certain areas God does. Ultimately (at least for right now) I think this scenario falls back on God’s reply to Job “Where were you when I hung the heavens?” I don’t know…and I’m willing to admit it. I’m also not willing to jump ship on the entirety of my faith because of a question like this.
Thank you for a thought provoking moment.
@ Owned
You’ve taken my comments and thrown them grossly out of proportion. The colonialists were wrong for what they did and were not acting in any true Biblical capacity. Ultimately from a Christian point of view, bathala is a false god and had no capacity to answer prayer anyway. The tribal peoples who had/have not been introduced to the gospel are not accountable for sin. Christians believe that sin is the conscious act of doing wrong.
African Americans actually latched on to the theology stemming from Exodus and the liberation of Israel from Egypt. They recognize a God who desires they be delivered from the hands of those who oppress them (read up on black and latin american liberation theology…it’s fascinating).
Owned, it seems you have not grasped the concepts I’ve presented and just cherry pick quotes from my posts and unroll insults from a stockpile of standard anti-Christian arguments. I’m a little miffed because you expect me to instantly reject my faith because your wisdom has opened my eyes and yet you seem to refuse to even process a word I’ve said. I feel disrespected and will not reply to another disrespectful post. K3vin and I have had a very good discussion because we’ve had mutual respect for each other’s beliefs.
I’ve personally had a wonderful experience with Christianity in general. I used to be a Methodist. I attended church events, bible reading, lock ins, choir, and I was even part of some of the congregations. It was a great social gathering for me. However, I had little questions that went unanswered about the underlining theology. The number of these questions grew and grew and everyone I asked had no idea or made some lame excuse, or admitted that they didn’t believe that part of the bible. After a little while I decided that I had no justification to believe in Christianity… I considered myself a deist. Yet again, I wondered what justification I had to believe that a god existed. Soon enough I considered myself a agnostic and very soon after an atheist.
Just a note: The way I define agnosticism and atheism leads to those terms not being mutually exclusive and I consider myself both.
Anyhow, I’m always interested in conversation with others because someone might know something I don’t. However, I have yet to see ample evidence for me to accept a religious belief and leave the ‘null hypothesis’ in regard to existence of a god.
I hope this conversation was helpful to you in some way. I’m sure I’ve learned a lot. It didn’t seem like you were trying to preach to me and it turned into a nice and long intellectual conversation. Feel free to ask my opinion on things any time. I’m sure we could go on and on about just about anything.
/hat-tip
@lilnega: I’m not sure that is common with fundamentalists… I tend to think that they truly and honestly believe what they say they believe. I know that there have been some high priority cases like this but there’s nothing to lead me to believe that this is common with fundamentalist Christianity..
Christianity without a sacred book is just a big club with a load of rules from a book that the majority of the members half agree with. If that’s what you mean by Christianity… then sure. I’m in. Hah. I’m sure I can find SOME things in the bible that I ethically agree with but there are some stories with horrible messages. All of this has nothing to do with the actual belief in god or any other spiritual claims made by Christians. Again, Christianity without spirituality is a big club with a very old book.
It seems like your question implies that there’s something else that validates Christianity for you. What would that be?
A report on UK radio yesterday described how 24 albinos had been murdered in the last two years in Tanzania (men, women, babies and older children) because the local witchdoctors have declared that body parts of albinos can bring you wealth. The local population believe what they have been told by others and take it on faith. Now they pay gangs to murder and hack up albinos for the body parts.
Every thing you believe about religion you believe simply because someone else told you to. You where probably immersed in religion from birth as I was in school and boy scouts. Even though both my parents where atheist. Turn your insight just a little further and you will see that the problems you are having with religion (you are thinking hard about it) stem from two places, the fundamental all encompassing false nature of religion (its just plain rubbish) and small gaps in your scientific knowledge. We know infinitely more about the nature of the universe through science than is in any of religions texts. If you are sticking on certain question you just need to reed and experiment more. 99 percent of modern science fits nicely into a taxonomy of fact that also happens (in complete and stark contrast to religious teaching) to fits with the observable evidence. Apologies for the insult of accusing you of childishness but to me all superstitious people have simply not progressed far and also widely enough through there intellectual development.
The problem with this is that the world desperately needs some rational thinking applied to it’s huge problems and the world’s religions are buggering this up by empowering the worst kind of manipulative, self important, deluded psychopaths.
Bush, Rumsfeld, Chaney, the pope, The Saudi royal family, and a thousand mullahs they sponsor. The list is literally endless.
Bush depends on Christianity for power just as much as the pope does. The Saudi use Wahabiism to keep the population in control with all the insidious bigotry and suffering for women that involves. You are part of this whether you know it or not. (maximum respect to you though Derek you are a gentleman) Simply by perpetuating fear uncertainty and doubt you legitimize all religions and make domination just that little bit more possible.
Forget the details they are simply distracting.
They are self perpetuating endless arguments that are forced at every turn to ignore the elephant in the room (they are based on rubbish) and conjure ever more inventive ways of avoiding the observable truth.
There are no gods, never have been and never will be. Nothing supernatural has ever happened. ( James Randy will give you a million dollars if you can show that it has) and
People make stuff up to influence others.
No more confusion required.
“I would like to read about studies involving prayer and how they were conducted. I’m a bit cynical of the objectivity.”
google +Harvard +Prayer
My experience of Christianity has been off the beaten path for sure. I grew up in a pentecostal church, both my parents were Christians, my grandparents were, etc. At around 10 years old I got involved with the Children’s Ministry at my church and felt a grand sense of belonging and acceptance. I wanted to be a professional puppeteer on Sesame Street or the like and Children’s Ministry used puppets. Over the long course of my teenage years I became an alcoholic, was raped, and experienced a lot of things that were scarring. I was still in church, smiling every Sunday, but I was absolutely dieing. I had a lot of questions, mainly from discussions like the ones we’ve had here, that could not be answered. I eventually ended up at a Christian Liberal Arts School studying Theatre and Children’s Ministry. It was at that school that I studied theology in depth. The professors there weren’t afraid of my questions like the people at church were. They actually encouraged me to think about my faith. Lots of my questions were getting better answers than “well you just have to trust in the Lord” When I turned 21, I returned to my alcoholism. My return also signaled a complete detachment from my faith. I was sick of the corruption in the church and the misuse of religion. I didn’t want to be a part of it. I was a non-believer sitting through classes on ministry going “f this!” Through the help of God, my Children’s Ministry advisor, my fiance, and my friends I was able to clean up again. After I was sober, I began to think about faith again. I found parts that were completely irredeemable. I found that the reason they were irredeemable is because someone had corrupted them down the line. I also found things like Liberation Theology as the crux of my new Christian beliefs. If scripture does not liberate, it’s been corrupted and should be disregarded for those passages that do. I think that Christianity was never meant to be in the state it’s in today. I am a reformer trying to restore Christianity to the teachings of Jesus. Love God, Love your Neighbor, Love your Enemy, Set the captive free.
Liberation is what validates Christianity for me. I am free to think, I am free from my addictions.
The ‘Religion for power thing’ only explains the powerful minority. Why are other people religious?
Personally I’ve always thought there were four broad ‘types’ of religious believers, of whatever denomination. (This is just based on my personal experience, other people might disagree).
Type 1: People who were immersed in religion, and have never (for whatever reason) examined their assumptions an beliefs. It’s just true, because it’s always been true.
Type 2: People who are/have become religious through study and introspection. (Often former type 1’s) These are the ones who are most likely to admit to doubt as to the existance of god, and least likely to belive that the bible is the literal word of god. In my experience, this type is the least likely to be fundamentalist.
Type 3: People who convert and use religion as a coping strategy. Sometimes due to a crisis in their lives, they rely on the suport of their religion, and sometimes on ‘the rules’ to tell them how to live. Often recovering alcoholics, addicts, or prisoners.
Type 4: ‘Personal revelation’. This can overlap with type 3. These are the ones who have ‘personally experienced’ god, or the holy spirit reaching out and touching them, and it’s made them a better person/reaffirmed their faith/bought them to god, etc. Together with type 3, most likely to evangelise. Sometimes convert to type 2.
I went through a very brief period of being intensely christian at age 14 after attending a baptist revival where I had an experience which I would describe as entering a transandental trance-like state. It lasted all of six weeks, until I realised that the religion was still the one I had already rejected, I still didn’t believe in god, and I could reliably put myself into the same sort of auto-hypnotic state by chanting a mantra and rocking. But I can certainly see why people can honestly feel that they have had a personal revelation, even though I don’t believe it’s supernatural in origin.
I can respect the beliefs of the type 2’s, even though I don’t share them… because they have actually thought things through, and tend to have better arguements than ‘god said so’.
Your first example…apples and oranges. Christians are killed every day too. Political regimes kill people for dissension…does that mean we should be anarchists and overthrow our political regime (I’d actually almost be in favor of that right now….1.20.09!) I get what you’re saying but it’s not exactly applicable in the broadest sense…at least where I’m coming from.
As for your second point, I actually don’t do things just because someone told me to. I am from a school within Christian ethics that advocates individual moral agency.
Individual moral agency works like this: Careful study of scripture reveals timeless principles like love your neighbor, care for orphans and widows, etc. those principles comprise a Christian world-view. That Christian world-view is the lens that all ethical situations pass through. It is up to the individual how one should behave in a certain situation based on a Biblical world-view. It is doing right, because it is right, not because someone told you to do it.
Christianity has wielded power over people in the past. I am part of a new wave of Christians who seek to uncover those corruptions within the history of the faith and restore it to what Jesus intended.
Christianity in its ideal form is perfect…however…it’s like socialism in that it looks really good on paper…but in actual practice it is subject to the corruption, or benevolence of its leaders. Christianity has unfortunately had some terrible leaders, so has the United States. I’m not willing to jump ship on Christianity just as much as I’m not willing to sail to Switzerland because of the corruption of its leaders.
People suck…it’s a reality of life. I’m seeking a Christianity that helps people suck less.
every beliefs are true.
it only depends who looks at it and from where.
quit believing in god
no god has intruded in your life
it’s time to stop believing now
the time has come
do we need to hold your hand?
[...] 24, 2008 by Daniel Florien Here’s a funny list of the top ten signs you’re a fundamentalist Christian. I was guilty of them all. Thank Baal I’m [...]
(added you to my blog roll, btw…
)
Sorry for spelling your name wrong by the way. It happens some times. I’m dyslexic.
In response.
I have noticed that religion seems to help “the wrong sort” into positions of power and does to a large degree seem to have been shaped by those same people.
Morality
Altruism and selfishness are the crudest classifications of morality and are demonstrably present in many animal populations. It is often an advantage to behave in a way that helps others if you can expect the same in return. But in any such population there rapidly emerges and advantage in being selfish. Literally taking advantage of the help provided by others to increase your breeding potential. This only works so far however as the advantage dissipates as selfishness spreads through a population. You can see that this leads to what is known as an evolutionary stable state where a portion of the population is selfish and a portion altruistic.
This is what we find in a very large number of animal populations that live in close proximity.
My point is that the morality you (and I) feel is actually intrinsic to humans and many other animals. And its obvious lack of homogeneity is perfectly natural also. There have been many thousands of religions and they all had some morality. Simply the morality that was most acceptable at the time and place. Religion fundamentally needs to be accepted to be successful and evolve.
You are talking a lot about Christianity. Do you draw a distinction between religions? because I see none.
“People suck…it’s a reality of life. I’m seeking a Christianity that helps people suck less.”
I think to be honest your best hope might be to use Christianity to “make” people suck less.
Its not what it was designed for but it would be applicable to the task.
I find it very difficult when people claim to have studied a certain religion when actually they have spent enumerable hours pondering the dogma created in a religion and not the actual history and development of it.
It is very hard to here people say “Jesus said …” It is extremely doubtful whether a person called Jesus ever existed. There is no contemporary record of him. The Romans where fastidious record keepers and we have at least 400 contemporary text that do not mention Jesus.
Paul and his friends where desperate to retain some of the Judaic traditions in the face of the Roman genocide after the Jewish uprising. It was simply not possible to be Jewish any longer in the Roman empire during the period Pauls gospels (the first) where being written. (incidentally 30 to 50 years after the supposed timing of the Christs death. During that period a very catchy religion was required that could survive the roman purges. So it would seem that Paul and his mates sat down and knocked one up. By his own admission Paul never met Jesus. All other gospels appear later and from more distant sources. He seems to have pieced together the ideas of previous and contemporary cults and sects and fitted them into the existing Jewish monotheistic doctrine. This was just what was needed and seems to have been very well received not just among the former Roman Jews but throughout the empire. It was taken up quickly by numerous sects who all had there own versions. It was probably a very diverse set of ideas by the time it was adopted by Constantine to aid first in his military campaign and later in consolidating the roman empire. Constantine seems to have been the man most singly responsible for pruning these sects and by persecution and persuasion establishing the standard roman church. Unfortunately a little too much of Pauls repressed homosexual guilt became a core part of this early religion. (just my personal feeling) So many centuries and countless revisions and editing (Canonization) of disparate writings and you end up with the texts (of which there are still many versions) known as the new testament.
No evidence at all that anyone called Jesus ever existed. This would be the first place I would look if I was weighing up a religion. It is amazing to me that people who spend there lives studying theology never bother to check even the basics.
[...] Simple. Take a look at the top ten signs you’re a fundamentalist christian. [...]
http://www.tektonics.org/parody/fundyath.html
lol, great article!
Cheers, Ian
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son for whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have ever lasting life! :)))
As my 3-year old used to say, when he was three and still closer to the source, “I can’t know” about all kinds of things. I found great wisdom in his words as I realized there are many things our mortal brains “can’t know”. We literally cannot comprehend them.
We also seem biologically predisposed to have people agree with us. Probably a social/survival sort of thing. This makes us want to share our beliefs with others.
Great theological discussion! See you in hell, my friends!
Not listened to a single word have you.
Do you think bald is a hair color?
Science is not in any possible way a religion
Do you think my condensed history of Christianity is false? Cause it ain’t. It’s based on solid research.
Radio 4 in the uk had a great interview a couple of days ago with a prof who is doing med research on twins.
Twins that he studies have shared backgrounds and environments. He studies identicle against non identicle twins to work out what traits are genetic. He has found lots of cool medical stuff about desease etc but he has also look at behaviors. Some suprising stuff. Fidelity for example seems to be inherited genetically.
But guess what else has a very strong genetic corolation?
Yup religion.
A portion of the population are born with a genetic propensity for religion and mysticism.
So if you where thinking that maybe telephone horoscope lines or prayer services where too much of a niche to make any money think again. They are sure fire easy money. Cause a big chunk of the population of the world are quite literally born gullable.
Your really thick. A very large number of self contradictions in a very short post is a dead give away.